Lolicon (Lolita Complex)

[dylanredefined]

A drawing may indeed be purely imaginary, however, if said drawing is sexually explicit, is there a difference in intent by the viewer?

Well for one thing the drawing doesn't hurt anyone in it's creation unlike real child porn.
No idea how to handle this I wish lolicon didn't exist as I like anime and manga and some shows would have problems with censorship.

 

[Kesher]

You're a fucking idiot.

I'm on the piss with LiamO at the moment but you can expect a full broadside later.

On the piss eh? Well here's hoping you are not presenting a risk to children


http://www.livestrong.com/article/240851-alcohol-child-abuse/

 

[Sasaferrato]

I'm not asking you to prove to me that this is easily available. I'm asking you where, if you think that extreme pornography depicting violence create the desire to commit violent acts, did people get the idea for these violent acts from?

What a strange question. People have not changed over time (or if they have it isn't generally for the better), what has changed is the ability to record and disseminate such material.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Well for one thing the drawing doesn't hurt anyone in it's creation unlike real child porn.
No idea how to handle this I wish lolicon didn't exist as I like anime and manga and some shows would have problems with censorship.

I am, to an extent playing devil's avocado on this. I can see the arguments for both sides, and know which camp I'm in personally.

My view however, holds no more validity than anyone else's, and I don't seek to impose it on anyone else.

Society, in terms of our 'elected representatives', decide what the law will be, one can only hope that they make the right decision.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Serial killers have been convicted on the basis of drawing violent sexual images of women and this forming part of the case against them, not illegal but dodgy as fuck.

A great many film directors and probably writers would be dodgy as fuck in your eyes too then?

 

[frogwoman]

A great many film directors and probably writers would be dodgy as fuck in your eyes too then?

No ffs.

 

[dylanredefined]

A great many film directors and probably writers would be dodgy as fuck in your eyes too then?

Guess it depends if they are making films and art or sitting in a bedsit with a crossbow and a collection of knives.

 

[frogwoman]

I cant add links but do a search for john sweeney the sketchbook killer.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

No ffs.

What's the difference between someone who creates a film like Friday the 13th or The Evil Dead and someone who sits in their bedroom drawing 'dodgy' pictures?

 

[dylanredefined]

What's the difference between someone who creates a film like Friday the 13th or The Evil Dead and someone who sits in their bedroom drawing 'dodgy' pictures?

A large pay cheque for one thing. Well since very few successful film directors have gone on to be killers. While quite a few disturbed individuals liked to draw dodgy pictures there is probably a big diffrence.

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rk-Did-serial-axe-monster-murder-5-women.html

This is the kind of thing im talking about.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

A large pay cheque for one thing. Well since very few successful film directors have gone on to be killers. While quite a few disturbed individuals liked to draw dodgy pictures there is probably a big diffrence.

You think directors like Cronenberg, Raimi and Argento started making their films for the money or because they wanted to engage with dark ideas and imagery?

 

[dylanredefined]

You think directors like Cronenberg, Raimi and Argento started making their films for the money or because they wanted to engage with dark ideas and imagery?

Everyone has to eat. I think they were able to turn their ideas into art while a more deranged individual lets their obsessions spiral into madness and sometimes murder.

 

[elbows]

Everyone in England knows that if you look at child rape images the chances are you will eventually be caught and your life will be literally ruined, you will be banned from working with kids, you might as well kill yourself.

I really doubt that does justice to the broader spectrum of beliefs that actually exists. Lots of people who are caught do not kill themselves, and find ways to cope with the varying degrees of ostracisation they will face, including coping mechanisms such as casting themselves as a victim. And I've no idea how many people actually never get caught, but since there are many other realms in which humans convince themselves that 'its probably not going to happen to them', no matter what it may be and no matter what the actual chances of it happening to them are, I would expect there are offenders who reckon they might get away with illegal image possession.

 

[frogwoman]

I really doubt that does justice to the broader spectrum of beliefs that actually exists. Lots of people who are caught do not kill themselves, and find ways to cope with the varying degrees of ostracisation they will face, including coping mechanisms such as casting themselves as a victim. And I've no idea how many people actually never get caught, but since there are many other realms in which humans convince themselves that 'its probably not going to happen to them', no matter what it may be and no matter what the actual chances of it happening to them are, I would expect there are offenders who reckon they might get away with illegal image possession.

Fair point, i probably went a bit over the top there but given the extreme social oppobrium that exists against paedophilia which nobody can fail to be aware of living in this country, someone who is accessing this material is already well on the way to overcoming some of the psychological and social barriers that exist against hurting an actual child in real life.

 

[elbows]

Also I read a study done some years ago, that was quoted on a radfem website I was reading, that men who crossdress are more likely to have other paraphilias like an attraction to kids. This website was fairly terfish tbh but if this is true could it, rather than proving the terf position that transgender = crossdressers = rapists, back up the idea that it's socially conditioned, ie because crossdressing (or whatever) has been a taboo for so long, the taboo nature of a totally harmless activity may itself be part of the reason why other paraphiliacs engage in it more often, and if it was more socially acceptable maybe we wouldn't see this pattern?

Since this particular subject could probably go wrong if done clumsily, I'd appreciate a link to the study you read on that if its not too hard for you to locate.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to test your hypothesis, how to separate that possibility from the other potential factors, and then test. I would suggest that taboos relating to gender have, if not exactly disappeared in the west in the last decade or six, at least changed in their depth and the extent to which acceptance can be found to some extent in broader society, and to a complete extent within a range of sub-cultures and their associated scenes.

 

[Spymaster]

What's the difference between someone who creates a film like Friday the 13th or The Evil Dead and someone who sits in their bedroom drawing 'dodgy' pictures?

Do you think it's ok to wank over pictures of children being raped?

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Do you think it's ok to wank over pictures of children being raped?

You're making assumptions about the manga being discussed here and people's reaction to it. Did you listen to the documentary?

 

[Johnny Vodka]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rk-Did-serial-axe-monster-murder-5-women.html

This is the kind of thing im talking about.

The picture in that article is actually very tame compared to imagery in your average horror film. It's only that the 'art' was apparently personalised that makes it disturbing.

 

[frogwoman]

Since this particular subject could probably go wrong if done clumsily, I'd appreciate a link to the study you read on that if its not too hard for you to locate.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to test your hypothesis, how to separate that possibility from the other potential factors, and then test. I would suggest that taboos relating to gender have, if not exactly disappeared in the west in the last decade or six, at least changed in their depth and the extent to which acceptance can be found to some extent in broader society, and to a complete extent within a range of sub-cultures and their associated scenes.

The original I read on a terf website called gendertrender and i dont want to link to it here. Just been trying to find a link to the study without linking to terf shit, and found this book which mentions a study of sex offenders done in 1988. It says I have reached my viewing limit though. '. To be honest though, i think this particular link has to be socially constructed, from a time when dressing in the clothing of the opposite sex carried far more of a taboo than it does now.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=uihg9Z6C2xoC&oi=fnd&pg=PA340&dq=crossdressing and paraphilias&ots=9vffdAUzHn&sig=fsPsYZ9grCRuoax3jzqwtip3ufc

 

[frogwoman]

elbows

http://www.forensicpsychiatry.ca/paraphilia/sadism.htm

One particularly interesting study on multiple paraphilias found that, on average, paraphiliacs with one diagnosis have two or three others as well, often not initially admitted or recognized. Thus, 18% of sadists were also masochistic, 46% had also engaged in rape,21% in exhibitionism,25% each in voyeurism and frottage and 33% in pedophilia (Abel et al., 1988). This study guaranteed the confidentiality of the participants and thus feedback could be considered quite accurate.

Other authors have noted an overlap between sadism, masochism, fetishism and transvestism. Among much more serious sadistic offenders, transvestism and fetishism are strongly represented (Dietz et al., 1990; Prentky et al., 1985).

I dont think 'tranvestism' is a disorder. Could it be that these people were engaging in it because of the fact it was regarded as gross/shocking rather than there being anything intrinsically wrong? I wonder whether a similar study today would show a different fetish as being predominant, is all.

 

[toggle]

Do you have any links to the studies you have read ViolentPanda ?

Also I read a study done some years ago, that was quoted on a radfem website I was reading, that men who crossdress are more likely to have other paraphilias like an attraction to kids. This website was fairly terfish tbh but if this is true could it, rather than proving the terf position that transgender = crossdressers = rapists, back up the idea that it's socially conditioned, ie because crossdressing (or whatever) has been a taboo for so long, the taboo nature of a totally harmless activity may itself be part of the reason why other paraphiliacs engage in it more often, and if it was more socially acceptable maybe we wouldn't see this pattern?

Is that the sort of thing you are talking about with social conditioning?

the main issue is that in my (admittedly limited) experience of male cross dressers, the thrill of the taboo ins't anything particularly uncommon and i do not believe it is linked to a propensity to keep finding more boundaries to cross.

 

[frogwoman]

the main issue is that in my (admittedly limited) experience of male cross dressers, the thrill of the taboo ins't anything particularly uncommon and i do not believe it is linked to a propensity to keep finding more boundaries to cross.

I agree with that, especially today when its not regarded how it once was! Maybe today a different fetish might be predominant?

 

[toggle]

I agree with that, especially today when its not regarded how it once was!

i think that's somewhat dependent on circumstances. and it is still a very long way from being openly acceptable.

 

[frogwoman]

the main issue is that in my (admittedly limited) experience of male cross dressers, the thrill of the taboo ins't anything particularly uncommon and i do not believe it is linked to a propensity to keep finding more boundaries to cross.

Nor do I! I think there's nothing wrong with crossdressers fwiw, i am just wondering why/whether there really is such a tendency among paraphiliacs as some of the studies seem to show, and what could explain it, or refute it. i hope my posts didnt come across the wrong way.

 

[goldenecitrone]

A drawing may indeed be purely imaginary, however, if said drawing is sexually explicit, is there a difference in intent by the viewer?

Yes. Looking at drawings produced from someone's imagination should not be a criminal act. It's a step on the road to criminalising the imagination. It's a step on the road to shooting people for drawing cartoons.

 

[Serangoon]

Fair point, i probably went a bit over the top there but given the extreme social oppobrium that exists against paedophilia which nobody can fail to be aware of living in this country, someone who is accessing this material is already well on the way to overcoming some of the psychological and social barriers that exist against hurting an actual child in real life.

Probably the other way round. I can't be arsed to find the studies, but there's some evidence that this stuff acts as paedo methadone - they can use it as a substitute for acting on their fantasies.

Full disclosure: I did a stint translating ero-guro a few years back.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you have any links to the studies you have read ViolentPanda ?

I'll see what I can dig out. Most of my files are on the old desktop computer, not on this lappy.

Also I read a study done some years ago, that was quoted on a radfem website I was reading, that men who crossdress are more likely to have other paraphilias like an attraction to kids.

I've never come across any research that's credibly shown that persons with a paraphilia are more likely to have or to develop other paraphilias. Paraphilias tend to be very specific to the individual, so surmising that a cross-dresser will be more likely to become a paedophile or a coprophile than a "normal" person would be, is pretty much just crass scaremongering of the same sort that pushed the belief that the majority of homosexuals were also child molesters, given the chance.

This website was fairly terfish tbh but if this is true could it, rather than proving the terf position that transgender = crossdressers = rapists, back up the idea that it's socially conditioned, ie because crossdressing (or whatever) has been a taboo for so long, the taboo nature of a totally harmless activity may itself be part of the reason why other paraphiliacs engage in it more often, and if it was more socially acceptable maybe we wouldn't see this pattern?

In my opinion the TERF thesis isn't sustainable - where's their evidence (beyond a handful of perverts who would manipulate access in any available way) that transgender persons are merely cross-dressers waiting for the opportunity to rape "real women" and/or invade their "safe spaces", rather than people with genuine gender identification issues? - and although paraphilias can be a partial result of social conditioning (enough exposure to solely-female company and clothing may,if you'll pardon the pun, engender a desire to dress in female clothing in a minority of people so exposed), I'm of the opinion that the roots of paraphilias lie earlier in human development in the infant years, if they're a social or developmental issue at all.

Is that the sort of thing you are talking about with social conditioning?

When I talk about social conditioning, I tend to be talking about how we're conditioned during the years (4-16 or 18) where we're compelled to come together with others via schooling, and are inculcated with ideas that are consonant with what "the Establishment" requires.

 

[toggle]

Nor do I! I think there's nothing wrong with crossdressers fwiw, i am just wondering why/whether there really is such a tendency among paraphiliacs as some of the studies seem to show, and what could explain it, or refute it. i hope my posts didnt come across the wrong way.

I've got certain issues about what it says about society and gender relations that dressing as a woman seems commonly to be a submissive fetish, but that's not something that is the responsibility of individuals, whose personal kinks are IME relatively harmless.

 

[ViolentPanda]

On the piss eh? Well here's hoping you are not presenting a risk to children


http://www.livestrong.com/article/240851-alcohol-child-abuse/

What a worthless piece of shit you are.