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Loads of profs and docs dissent from Darwinian "consensus"

What, you can't figure out that there are many hoops in the meantime to be jumped through before one concludes this way or another?

As if I wouldn't know it's not exactly that simple and easy-peasy - or what?

Besides, "idealism" is a loaded and seriously misunderstood term.

Even in Hegel's case it's debatable but why not use it lightly...

I am not an "idealist", unless you mean it in The Sun manner...

Honestly...:hmm:
 
Bullshit! Most here do NOT - and I repeat: do not have a clue and even if they did read it they do NOT understand the relevance, the depth and implications of his work and the subsequent development to Hegel and Marx!!! - have the means to incirporate those developments into their own thinking on the subject!

This would sound more convincing if it looked like you understood Marx. However, its quite plain you don't.

Let me be clear. The point that you think Marx criticises Darwinism on, ie. its alleged Malthusianism is in no way controversial. Marx would have been the most vain and pathetic politically correct numpty to make this into a criticism of the scientific theory.

Why? The point Darwin was making here was not that natural selection explains evolution but merely that natural selection exists ie. that there are a proportion of organisms that do not live a full reproductive life. That's all. I doubt even creationists could argue with this utterly sound point.

So this Marx of gorski's, the PC numpty, a man who would refuse to recognise a simple fact no matter how stubborn. Was this the man who was capable of taking such a cold hard look at the world that he was capable of saying:

"Without slavery North America, the most progressive of countries, would be transformed into a patriarchal country. Wipe North America off the map of the world, and you will have anarchy — the complete decay of modern commerce and civilization. Cause slavery to disappear and you will have wiped America off the map of nations."

Was this a defence of slavery? No. Did Marx think it was true? Yes, and I think he was probably right.

Marx was quite capable of distinguishing fact and value. Read Marx and see what cool objectivity looks like. Read Marx to understand what praxis really means.
 
Indeed, one has to be a complete numpty to take it like that, as Marx certainly is criticising Darwin in some regards, as much as praise him in other regards. How and why? I'll let you figure it out for yourself, as you are a big boy... Even if you are somewhat muddled and all mixed up... But then again, you're a mathematician... And these things don't come in straight forward, unidirectional manner...:rolleyes::D
 
Indeed, one has to be a complete numpty to take it like that, as Marx certainly is criticising Darwin in some regards, as much as praise him in other regards. How and why? I'll let you figure it out for yourself, as you are a big boy... Even if you are somewhat muddled and all mixed up... But then again, you're a mathematician... And these things don't come in straight forward, unidirectional manner...:rolleyes::D

Well I'm just a small boy from a small family (Spare me my life from this monstrosity)and i'd like you to explain how Marx criticises Darwin, to what ends and what implications for evolutionary theory.
 
Indeed, one has to be a complete numpty to take it like that, as Marx certainly is criticising Darwin in some regards, as much as praise him in other regards. How and why? I'll let you figure it out for yourself, as you are a big boy... Even if you are somewhat muddled and all mixed up... But then again, you're a mathematician... And these things don't come in straight forward, unidirectional manner...:rolleyes::D

As if it were about the criticism of Darwin the man rather Darwin's theory! As if Marx was treating Darwin like a high priest! Criticise the man and the theory collapses. What?!!

Marx's point was very trivial and its perfectly straightforward and I've explained it four maybe five times now. In a few months time you will have forgotten all about it. Again. I will explain it. Again. You will say nothing. Again. A few months after that...

Incidently your point about instincts was good and gave me pause to thought if that makes you feel any better.
 
As if it were about the criticism of Darwin the man rather Darwin's theory! As if Marx was treating Darwin like a high priest! Criticise the man and the theory collapses. What?!!

Marx's point was very trivial and its perfectly straightforward and I've explained it four maybe five times now. In a few months time you will have forgotten all about it. Again. I will explain it. Again. You will say nothing. Again. A few months after that...

Incidently your point about instincts was good and gave me pause to thought if that makes you feel any better.

You are going silly now, as I have explained it a wee bit earlier but it just can't seem to get through your trolling skull... Have fun... [I repeat: I know your inner boredom is killing you but it is a bit much...]

Maths does this to people - it has to be expressed in no uncertain terms or else...

And Philosophy, society, arts etc. don't work like that, sorry...

If you want to tell something meaningful about Humanity and its potential it ain't gonna be done in those terms. What could be said in those terms is utterly predictable, boring, shallow and actually trivial, as you seem to be confirming...

P.S. About attacking Darwin the man - are you out of your head or summat? Who done tha'? :rolleyes:
 
You never fail to disapoint.

So you have nothing to say. Again.

You are also wrong about Kant, Fichte and Hegel by the way. They weren't PC numpties either, but that's for another time.
 
Oh, and FWIW...I did some reading about the contention in the OP, and if anything, there's more consensus from scientists across the range of disciplines that 'traditional' Darwinism - evolution via natural selection - has more support than the neo-Darwinist viewpoint!
 
Oh, and FWIW...I did some reading about the contention in the OP, and if anything, there's more consensus from scientists across the range of disciplines that 'traditional' Darwinism - evolution via natural selection - has more support than the neo-Darwinist viewpoint!

Irrelevant :rolleyes:
 
Are you channeling Gorski? Given that the OP, years ago, was talking about scientists and profs 'dissenting' from the 'Darwinian consensus' it seems that many, many more of them consent to the consensus, as it were...
 
To disagree with somebody the presumption is that one understands the other. ..
What an interesting definition.

It could be taken to imply that Gorski has never disagreed with any poster here. I'm not altogether sure that's right, mind, so I think I'll carry on using a more standard definition of "to disagree".

Main Entry: dis·agree
Pronunciation: \ˌdis-ə-ˈgrē\
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, to refuse assent, from Anglo-French desagreer, from des- dis- + agreer to agree
Date: 15th century

1 : to fail to agree <the two accounts disagree>
2 : to differ in opinion <he disagreed with me on every topic>
3 : to cause discomfort or distress <fried foods disagree with me>
 
...[see posters like bitch, revolting bitch or any number of them, poor sods..]...

Messing with usernames, particularly in an insulting way, is against the posting rules. Moreover, I think your command of the language is so poor that you have little idea of quite how abusive you're actually being. It would be best to stop.
 
Cool, we've found another topic you obviously know nothing about.....

I dunno, sounds about right. I've said myself that mathematics is a terrible model for philosophy. Its pure hyperbola (what gorski said), of course. I don't think mathematicians are filled with a desire to make everything maths like, not that gorski would know.

Also, what's philosophy got to do with this question of biology anyway? It might have something to do with it, but since nobody has brought any philosophical points up then what are we talking about?
 
Fruity, give it a rest, you're gonna do yourself an injury... My English is way much better, I bet any money I ain't got, than your Serbo-Croat... Speak any other lingos? Wanna compare? Blimey, kids, this petty insult level is going to your heads....

And I do know a few things about how a little problem of "freedom" looks like when mathematical logics is applied and a jolly "thinker" tries to say anything meaningful about it from such a grand and sound foundation, so I don't need any big advice about just how far a mathematician could possibly go...
 
Stop telling people how much you know and how much they don't and start saying something. Base it on what the people you claim to be in the tradition of if you like. Make original use of their work. Just say something.
 
No, you can't possibly understand any of it, as prejudice, hatred and nastiness are clouding your "judgement"... And I don't mean anything personal but overall... That's where the "chip on your shoulder" comes in... Ergo, I believe you actually believe yourself.... But I know better...
 
Any of what exactly? Where's the content i'm too thick and malajusted to get?

And gorski, this is what people are like. We're not your weberian ideal type. Better get used to it.
 
And I do know a few things about how a little problem of "freedom" looks like when mathematical logics is applied and a jolly "thinker" tries to say anything meaningful about it from such a grand and sound foundation, so I don't need any big advice about just how far a mathematician could possibly go...

Well if you won't take my advise try Hegel's. You are complaining about the fact that mathematical thinking tends to express things in no uncertain terms ie. it represents a method of determination of things.

Try this for size:
"Mention has already been made above of the thing-in-itself, and it was remarked that the thing-in-itself as such is nothing but the empty abstraction from all determinateness, of which admittedly we can know nothing, for the very reason that it is supposed to be the abstraction from every determination. The thing-in-itself being thus presupposed as the indeterminate, all determination falls outside it into an alien reflection to which it is indifferent. For transcendental idealism this external reflection is consciousness. Since this philosophical system places every determinateness of things both as regards form and content, in consciousness, the fact that I see leaves of a tree not as black but as green, the sun as round and not square, and taste sugar as sweet and not bitter, that I determine the first and second strokes of a clock as successive and not as one beside the other, nor determine the first as cause and the second as effect, and so on, all this something which, from this standpoint, falls in me, the subject. This crude presentation of subjective idealism is directly contradicted by the consciousness of freedom, according to which I know myself rather as the universal and undetermined, and separate off from myself those manifold and necessary determinations, recognizing them as something external for and belonging only to things… I have shown elsewhere that this transcendental idealism does not get away from the limitation of the ego by the object, but only changes the form of the limitation, which remains for it an absolute, merely giving it a subjective instead of an objective shape and making into determinatenesses of the ego and into a turbulent whirlpool of change within it (as if the ego were a thing) that which the ordinary consciousness knows as a manifoldness and alteration belonging to things external to it." Hegel, Remark on the Thing-in-itself of Transcendental Idealism, Science of Logic (translated by A.V. Miller).

So in locating the Notions of Malthus in the Notions of Darwin you see only a new subjective shape of the Notion. The falsity of Malthus lives on in Darwin. This is what happens when you consider only the subjective.

Notice that this subjective idealism, according to Hegel, implicitly rejects the subjectivist's own cherished concept of "freedom of the consciouness".

Notice also the rigid way in which you see people of different "traditions" as being unable to communicate their ideas to one another. Again denying your cherished concept of "freedom".

Of course I think all this talk of freedom is just idealist angels on pinheads stuff. But it is worth pointing out that Hegel, despite all his faults, was a realist. He was unafraid of objectivity, of truth and all the formal judgements that accompany the formal logic of truth. This indeed was a special case of his philosophical system.

"Objective truth is no doubt the Idea itself as the reality that corresponds to the Notion, and to this extent an object may or may not possess truth; but, on the other hand, the more precise meaning of truth is that it is truth for or in the subjective Notion, in knowing. It is the relation of the Notion judgement which showed itself to be the formal judgement of truth; in it, namely, the predicate is not merely the objectivity of the Notion, but the relating comparison of the Notion of the subject-matter with its actuality." Hegel, Idea of Truth, Science of Logic.

In other words the criteria for truth are not found in the "Notion" that we have but in how the "Notion" relates to the subject-matter.

So all this pure ideological/methodological criticism (while ignoring all the work done by scientists on the subject-matter with a few smilies and a "yeuuk!!") cannot say anything about the subject-matter and in doing so (according to Hegel) can only restrict our freedom.

All this is strongly related to Hegel's concept of "Aufheben" - negating while preserving. Roughly - what Hegel calls "Notions" (not to be confused with "Ideas") cannot be negated and cast aside as they, considered in themselves do not relate to the "Actuality". Hence Hegel rejecting the law of non-contradiction and the law of identity and so forth in logic.

Again there is no Aufheben in what you say. Malthus was wrong, wrongity wrong, wrong wrong. Yet this says nothing about applying his "Notions" to a new subject-matter.

Of course the way I argued it the first time round - without the philosophical detour - was much better.
 
Fruity, give it a rest, you're gonna do yourself an injury... My English is way much better, I bet any money I ain't got, than your Serbo-Croat... Speak any other lingos? Wanna compare? Blimey, kids, this petty insult level is going to your heads....

And I do know a few things about how a little problem of "freedom" looks like when mathematical logics is applied and a jolly "thinker" tries to say anything meaningful about it from such a grand and sound foundation, so I don't need any big advice about just how far a mathematician could possibly go...

I speak (or read - delete as applicable) nine languages, but Serbo-Croat is not one of them. Next on my to-do list is to learn Standard Mandarin, and also to do something about the horrible state of my Japanese. Is there a pressing reason why Serbo-Croat should be at the top of my list?

In fact if you count formal/abstract/computer languages (which I strongly suspect you don't, ha ha) you could add at least another twenty to that figure, as this is what has occupied the majority of my time for the last decade or so.

Really, though, your written English comes across as being pretty appalling. Whether this is a reflection of fundamentally muddled thinking or a simple lack of specific facility in this particular language I am unable to deduce. It is undoubtedly, however, a contributing cause to the generally poor reception your ideas have received here.
 
I dunno, sounds about right.

Well, I guess I was thinking a little wider than what might be considered 'pure' mathematics to indeterminacy, non-linearity, superpositions, Bare theory etc etc. I mean would you expect to hear a professional mathematician pronounce that 'in mathematics, everything must be this way or that'? What would they mean by it?
 
The only fundamentally muddled thinking here is yours and your buddies here, plus of course [just look at that!!!:D] Knotted...:rolleyes::p Ayayayyaaaaaayyy...:D

Fine, put Slovenian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, plus an awful state of my Russian and Byelorussian, Ukrainian and Czech, not to mention Slovak. Maybe a bit of Polish, too... And that's on top of Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosnian and any other combination of those... A'right?:D
 
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