Life after the SWP?

[TremulousTetra]

Why?

It's not the actions of the Left (of whatever stripe) that really matters. It's the actions of the class.

In all seriousness, good look to anarchists. Whatever tactics they use, I wish them nothing but success.
Yes indeed it is the actions of the working class that is fundamental. The emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class. However, I do think revolutionaries have a role in initiating working class action. At least trying to initiate working class action. I believe that such revolutionaries are better organised, than disorganised. Unity is strength, and I see nothing wrong with seeking to unite all those of the working class inclined to revolution in to a party, in the furtherance of advancements today, towards the achievement of revolution tommorow. Like steam is useless atomised, and useful focused in a piston, revolutionaries are more useful organised than disorganised IMHO.

 

[TremulousTetra]

No. Give up hope for humankind, never mind anarchism/communism. :-(

errr, maybe give wrong impression.

Not given up on human beings. they never cease to amaze me how giving, loyal, beautiful they are .just given up on their ability to possibly organise themselves better to fulfil their aims, needs, and desires in the timescale the possible ecological /social/ and economic disaster allows .

 

[belboid]

Not given up on human beings.

Dont worry about it. They've all given up on you.

 

[Random]

Hope you're ok RMP3.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Hope you're ok RMP3.

genuine? LOL

yes fine. Managed to eek out for myself, a little bit of heaven. I think my care package has probably caused the budget deficit LOL. Less for them to spend on bombing Afghanistan, Iraq, wherever.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Dont worry about it. They've all given up on you.

you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[chilango]

chilango offered nothing, neither have any others. And despite intendedly provocative statements, still none are pointed to. The ball remains firmly in their court.

Except it isn't.

I don't claim to "offer" much.

And rightly so.

I will however question those who do.

 

[chilango]

In all seriousness, good look to anarchists. Whatever tactics they use, I wish them nothing but success.
Yes indeed it is the actions of the working class that is fundamental. The emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class. However, I do think revolutionaries have a role in initiating working class action. At least trying to initiate working class action. I believe that such revolutionaries are better organised, than disorganised. Unity is strength, and I see nothing wrong with seeking to unite all those of the working class inclined to revolution in to a party, in the furtherance of advancements today, towards the achievement of revolution tommorow. Like steam is useless atomised, and useful focused in a piston, revolutionaries are more useful organised than disorganised IMHO.

I'm not an anarchist.

So I can't really speak for them.

Nor am I a revolutionary, merely someone who thinks it might just take a revolution to get a better society.

I'd like to be completely apolitical, but am not being given that choice sadly.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Except it isn't.

I don't claim to "offer" much.

And rightly so.

I will however question those who do.

I'm not an anarchist.

So I can't really speak for them.

Nor am I a revolutionary, merely someone who thinks it might just take a revolution to get a better society.

I'd like to be completely apolitical, but am not being given that choice sadly.

Critisise everything, whilst offering nothing, certainly sounds like the ones on here. lol

but I meant offered no examples of "what do the non-Bolshevik left have to show for the last four years?". I think you said not much, and then nothing. An estimation which seems about right.


------------------------------------------------
In all seriousness, good luck to ALL the non-Bolshevik and Bolshevik left. Whatever tactics they use, I wish them nothing but success.
Yes indeed it is the actions of the working class that is fundamental. The emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class. However, I do think revolutionaries have a role in initiating working class action. At least trying to initiate working class action. I believe that such revolutionaries are better organised, than disorganised. Unity is strength, and I see nothing wrong with seeking to unite all those of the working class inclined to revolution in to a party, in the furtherance of advancements today, towards the achievement of revolution tommorow. Like steam is useless atomised, and useful focused in a piston, revolutionaries are more useful organised than disorganised IMHO.

 

[chilango]

ResistanceMP3, you continue to patronise and confuse in equal measure.

I'm confident the "non-Bolshevik left" could point to a number of small victories and important struggles that they have been involved with.

But, and it's a massive "but", they don't need to do so. We could have yet another dull discussion on vanguardism and "advanced layers" blah blah fucking blah.

What these ideas (note ideas not groups) have to offer is not confined to an activist CV, but more a way of looking at stuff.

Eta. I haven't expressed myself well here. I'll try again later...

 

[chilango]

Ok, ResistanceMP3, hopefully this will make more sense.

IMO, groups like the SWP who rely upon perpetual activism and/or delusions of being "The Party" have more of need to constantly wave lists of "achievements" in the air in order to recruit and survive.

Many (but by no means all) "non-Bolshevik" traditions don't need to do this because they're purpose is somewhat different.

But anyway, I personally don't feel any need to slap a hefty list of successes on the table because it's utterly irrelevant to the validity or not of the ideas that I have.

These ideas come down to the fact that any significant change comes from below, and I guess I just don't see the role of he party/revolutionaries/activists/militants like you do. I suspect you will accuse me of spontaneism and you'd be right.

For your interest, and absolutely not to prove any point (cos it doesn't). Here's some if things I've seen the non-Bolshevik left (anarchists, autonomists and others) do in my neighbourhood over the past four years:

Run two radical libraries (one anarchist, one w/c history)
Run an occupied social centre (actually more than one, but only survived the whole fur years) with political and community activities, concerts, exhibitions, etc. etc.

Organise local residents in an gentrification campaign against speculators. Neighbourhood meetings, committees etc.

Organise anti-racist and anti-fascist activity.

Run an Anarcho-syndicalist trade union (the USI) with local "drop in" offices. This union was also involved in strikes etc. at the hospital my daughter was born at.

Run "base unions" (the CUB and COBA) that organised migrant labour and called a number of general strikes.

Plus a bunch of protests etc.

In contrast the "Bolshevik left" was largely absent from my neighbourhood at least. They stuck a few stickers up, and my union (the CGIL) had a few national token protests and a couple of half-hearted general strikes.

 

[Random]

genuine? LOL

yes fine. Managed to eek out for myself, a little bit of heaven. I think my care package has probably caused the budget deficit LOL. Less for them to spend on bombing Afghanistan, Iraq, wherever.

Glad to hear it

 

[TremulousTetra]

Ok, ResistanceMP3

But anyway, I personally don't feel any need to slap a hefty list of successes on the table because it's utterly irrelevant to the validity or not of the ideas that I have.

YOU started this with a comment about the SWP

Yup.

Four years with nowt to show for it too.

the SWP have nothing to show for four years, YOU state.

how was it then unreasonable to ask you?

and what do the non-Bolshevik left have to show for the last four years?

 

[chilango]

YOU started this with a comment about the SWP
the SWP have nothing to show for four years, YOU state.

I was it then unreasonable to ask you?

Reasonable, but mistaken.

It matters for the validity of the SWP that they have nothing to show for four years.

It doesn't for much of the non-bolshevik left.

...and yet again let me stress I am not a partisan of any group or current. I can't and won't speak on behalf of groups I am not a part of.

 

[TremulousTetra]

ResistanceMP3We could have yet another dull discussion on vanguardism and "advanced layers" blah blah fucking blah.

I seriously and genuinely would love to hear a reasoned argument as to why it is unreasonable to state;
some people are more conscious of the issue of social revolution, than others.

I am genuinely fascinated as to the logic to why so many people on here object to the terms working class and revolutionary consciousness.

PS. quite prepared to rephrase any of that .I don't want to get bogged down in pedantics about language, when the issue of revolutionary consciousness ,and your objections to it would be very interesting.

 

[chilango]

We've done this at length before.

 

[belboid]

We've done this at length before.

you'd almost think he does it on purpose.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Reasonable, but mistaken.

It matters for the validity of the SWP that they have nothing to show for four years.

It doesn't for much of the non-bolshevik left.

...and yet again let me stress I am not a partisan of any group or current. I can't and won't speak on behalf of groups I am not a part of.

ahhh, that is clearer.

Well I think you're mistaken as to why I think it matters for the validity of the SWP, and it matters for the validity of the non-Bolshevik left, But perhaps it would be better if you would explain why you think it doesn't matter for much of the non-Bolshevik left.


PS. quite happy to accept your view is yours alone and speaks nobody else.

 

[TremulousTetra]

We've done this at length before.

ahhh, yes, I seem to remember vaguely a discussion some time ago.

Well sorry, it genuinely mustn't have been couched in a way I could understand it, because it hasn't stuck with me.

But fair enough, you have tried and failed to explain it to me , so it is unreasonable for me to ask you to go through it again.

 

[chilango]

ahhh, that is clearer.

Well I think you're mistaken as to why I think it matters for the validity of the SWP, and it matters for the validity of the non-Bolshevik left, But perhaps it would be better if you would explain why you think it doesn't matter for much of the non-Bolshevik left.


PS. quite happy to accept your view is yours alone and speaks nobody else.

As I said above:

IMO, groups like the SWP who rely upon perpetual activism and/or delusions of being "The Party" have more of need to constantly wave lists of "achievements" in the air in order to recruit and survive.

 

[chilango]

ahhh, yes, I seem to remember vaguely a discussion some time ago.

Well sorry, it genuinely mustn't have been couched in a way I could understand it, because it hasn't stuck with me.

But fair enough, you have tried and failed to explain it to me , so it is unreasonable for me to ask you to go through it again.

Yep.

We went round in circles for a long time.

 

[TremulousTetra]

As I said above:

IMO, groups like the SWP who rely upon perpetual activism and/or delusions of being "The Party" have more of need to constantly wave lists of "achievements" in the air in order to recruit and survive.

I think it is important that the ideas about strategy and tactics et cetera, of the of the non-Bolshevik left, gain purchase amongst the widest section of the working class [and middle classes] as possible. Don't you?

 

[chilango]

I think it is important that the ideas about strategy and tactics et cetera, of the of the non-Bolshevik left, gain purchase amongst the widest section of the working class [and middle classes] as possible. Don't you?

No.

They should available/in the mix. That's all.

 

[butchersapron]

Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!

I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.

Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,

Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;

A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

 

[frogwoman]

what happened to the ida of people learning through struggle? not necessarily having revolutionaries to tell them what to do?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Is it your opinion that the strategy and tactics of the non-Bolshevik left in the class struggle, would better enable the working class to achieve its ends than say the strategy and tactics of reformism?

ETA chilango

ETA 16:35 apologise for terrible initial editing. hope that is clearer, though chilango was able to deduce what I was saying . N

 

[chilango]

Is it your opinion that the strategy in tactics of the non-Bolshevik left for such the class struggle, would better enable working class to achieve its ends than say the strategy and tactics of reformism?

No.

That question just doesn't fit with how I see class struggle functioning. It's not as narrow/linear/uniform as that.

 

[chilango]

..and you should probably be more specific than "non-bolshevik left".

 

[TremulousTetra]

what happened to the idea of people learning through struggle? not necessarily having revolutionaries to tell them what to do?

no one has ever suggested to me that revolutionaries can tell people what to do. Do you think somebody has?

E.g. local meeting about lack of housing in the area . Fascist gets up and argues we need to get the foreigners out of housing, and house people. revolutionary gets up and argues we need to squat the empty houses and use rent strikes et cetera to get better housing for all.

1. That isn't telling people what to do, that is posing an alternative for people to choose to accept or refuse.

2. These are tried and tested tactics. I'm not saying revolutionaries can't learn from the class struggle better tactics than them, but why do we have to reinvent the wheel every time? Why not promote successful tactics from the past, and dissuade unsuccessful tactics ? Why not learn the lessons of history?

The organising into a structure IE party, is ONLY legitimate, if it is aimed to more effectively counter the ideas of the ruling class and promote the emancipation of the working class by the working class, IS what I was taught.

 

[chilango]

no one has ever suggested to me that revolutionaries can tell people what to do. Do you think somebody has?

E.g. local meeting about lack of housing in the area . Fascist gets up and argues we need to get the foreigners out of housing, and house people. revolutionary gets up and argues we need to squat the empty houses and use rent strikes et cetera to get better housing for all.

1. That isn't telling people what to do, that is posing an alternative for people to choose to accept or refuse.

2. These are tried and tested tactics. I'm not saying revolutionaries can't learn from the class struggle better tactics than them, but why do we have to reinvent the wheel every time? Why not promote successful tactics from the past, and dissuade unsuccessful tactics ? Why not learn the lessons of history?

The organising into a structure IE party, is ONLY legitimate, if it is aimed to more effectively counter the ideas of the ruling class and promote the emancipation of the working class by the working class, IS what I was taught.

All sounds okay, until the tagged on, and unnecessary, final paragraph.

...and misses the key point that, by and large, self-styled revolutionaries don't have tried and tested tactics for winning. That's the problem, especially when they think they do and keep using them for defeat after defeat after defeat after defeat after defeat after defeat and so on ad nauseoum.