Legitimate criticism of Islam

[Left]

Is it possible, in this climate, for a privileged white ex-Christian to critique Islam without sounding like a racist arsehole?
It's obvious that a lot of the "new atheists" (Harris and Hitchens are the worst), as well as Christian and Jewish bigots, use "criticism of Islam" as a smokescreen for their bloodlust and anti-arab bigotry. Some people use "Draw Mohammed Day" as an excuse to draw racist caricatures of Muslims in the name of freedom of expression. This is not legitimate criticism and further marginalises a group that is already highly mmarginalised in our society.
Then there are the progressive types who will dismiss any critique of Islamic doctrine or practises as racism and imperialism. I have some sympathy with this view, as we're so often hearing Islam and Muslim attacked by bigots that it can be hard to tell whether someone is arguing in good faith.
Take the burqua. It is a disgusting expression of rape culture that many liberals are loath to condemn for fear of being taken for bigots. Should the burqua be banned? Many feminists think so, but so do many bigots who just want to shit on Muslims. Is a ban the best way to deal with the problem? How else can people not directly involved in these communities tackle this problem?
We have the issue of gender segregation, where some universities have pandered to Islamic speakers and groups by allowing segregated seating (men up front of course). This is totally unacceptable but again is being exploited by terrible people as another excuse to attack Muslims.
We have Respect throwing women and queer people under the bus so as not to offend reactionary Muslims.
These are problems that need to be dealt with but it seems like every effort will get hijacked by racists, so that progressives will feel uncomfortable and drop out and the problems persist. We can't rely on Muslims to "police their own" any more than we can rely on Christians to do the same, but criticism from outsiders will understandably be seen by many Muslims as just more of the same bullshit. It's difficult to see how any progress can be made.

any thoughts, ideas, disagreements?

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Of course it is possible, as a white person, to criticise islam without being racist etc. Just because some racist idiots may share the same view on a particular issue, but use it to further their own warped agenda, doesn't mean non-racists should shy away from criticising the same issue for fear of being lumped in with the idiots.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

In my experience it's the racists who come out with shit like: 'You can't criticise Islam (or mass immigration) without being called a racist these days'.

The left should always have the courage of its convictions and not shy away from criticising when criticism is due.

Religious fundamentalism is basically right wing and conservative in nature, so the left shouldn't feel the need to hold back.

 

[Left]

Now Dawkins on twitter is defending white supremacists who desecrated a mosque. Fucking scumbag.
This is the kind of thing that makes it difficult more difficult for sensible progressives and secularists to speak out (not that Dawkins is a progressive, but he thinks he is). There is a hell of a lot to criticise about Islam, but the bigots mix reasonable criticisms (but done in bad faith) with lies and bullshit. Then everyone ignores the reasonable stuff.

 

[butchersapron]

What did Dawkins say?

 

[Left]

He's lying, it wasn't just "draping bacon on a door". It was a hate crime: http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...-up-for-attacking-mosque-with-bacon-1-3451703

https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins
Richard DawkinsVerified account‏@RichardDawkins​

How can you be jailed a year for nonviolently draping bacon on a door? http://bbc.in/1irOeuL . Law contemptible gives standing to "offence"

Richard DawkinsVerified account‏@RichardDawkins​

Who (apart from the pig) is damaged by bacon? http://bbc.in/1irOeuL How can this possibly justify a year in jail? Law gone mad.

Richard DawkinsVerified account‏@RichardDawkins​

What would be the appropriate sentence for hanging bacon on the door of a vegan? Right. Why is a mosque any different?

Because vegans are routinely discriminated against, bombed, detained without trial, tortured, etc. you fucking shithead

File it under the same category as "mild paedophilia isn't that bad", "calling me a privileged white man is racist", "we shouldn't talk about sexism in our community because Muslims are worse" and countless other epic fails over the last few years.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Another twat who deserves a good hoofing.

 

[stavros]

Is it possible, in this climate, for a privileged white ex-Christian to critique Islam without sounding like a racist arsehole?

I don't mean to open a whole new can of worms, but is Islam a race? If I converted to Islam tomorrow, does my race change?

 

[Left]

I don't mean to open a whole new can of worms, but is Islam a race? If I converted to Islam tomorrow, does my race change?

Islam isn't a race, but "Muslims" are perceived as a race despite their diversity. Whether your "race" changes in people's perception depends on how westernised you look. People often talk about "Muslims" in a essentialist and dehumanising way which is racist.

 

[DotCommunist]

it's a religion and in some cses shared social practises. The point Left was making is that the likes of the 'anti extremist' edl say they criticise islam but spend an awful lot of time being racist to brown people.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Islam isn't a race, but "Muslims" are perceived as a race despite their diversity. Whether your "race" changes in people's perception depends on how westernised you look. People often talk about "Muslims" in a essentialist and dehumanising way which is racist.

And quite a few racists play the "islam isn't a race, i'm not being racist" line when they are being racist...

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm not posting on this thread until JHE has had his say.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm not posting on this thread until JHE has had his say.

tower hamladesh....al-respeqt.....

 

[Dr Jon]

Any criticism of superstitious fuckwittery is legitimate.

 

[ruffneck23]

but surely criticism of a different religion isn't racist ?

but i cant find a word for it

 

[DotCommunist]

bigotry covers it.

 

[likesfish]

You probably cant escape the accusation of racism if your white and having ago at islam.
Dawkins may be being a cunt but as an athesit the idea of a bit of cooked meat nailed to a door is a grave grave offence is stupid.
Next your be saying writing novels deserves the death sentence

 

[Andrew Hertford]

He's lying, it wasn't just "draping bacon on a door". It was a hate crime: http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...-up-for-attacking-mosque-with-bacon-1-3451703

Richard DawkinsVerified account‏@RichardDawkins​

How can you be jailed a year for nonviolently draping bacon on a door? http://bbc.in/1irOeuL . Law contemptible gives standing to "offence"

Richard DawkinsVerified account‏@RichardDawkins​

Who (apart from the pig) is damaged by bacon? http://bbc.in/1irOeuL How can this possibly justify a year in jail? Law gone mad.

Richard DawkinsVerified account‏@RichardDawkins​

What would be the appropriate sentence for hanging bacon on the door of a vegan? Right. Why is a mosque any different?

Because vegans are routinely discriminated against, bombed, detained without trial, tortured, etc. you fucking shithead

File it under the same category as "mild paedophilia isn't that bad", "calling me a privileged white man is racist", "we shouldn't talk about sexism in our community because Muslims are worse" and countless other epic fails over the last few years.

I don't know the full details, but if it was a case of some twat draping bacon onto a door, then Dawkins is right to say that a year in jail is totally disproportionate.

He did go on to say that the act was 'nasty' and I would have gone a lot further than that, but a year inside? That's ridiculous.

 

[Left]

And quite a few racists play the "islam isn't a race, i'm not being racist" line when they are being racist...

Oh Dawkins LOVES that one.

I don't know the full details, but if it was a case of some twat draping bacon onto a door, then Dawkins is right to say that a year in jail is totally disproportionate.

He did go on to say that the act was 'nasty' and I would have gone a lot further than that, but a year inside? That's ridiculous.

It's terrorism. It's an attempt to intimidate and marginalise Muslims. They were wearing hoods and invading someone's space. Fear of physical violence would not have been unreasonable. They were SDL members, so it was politically motivated. I think a year inside is reasonable.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Oh Dawkins LOVES that one.



It's terrorism. It's an attempt to intimidate and marginalise Muslims. They were SDL members. I think a year inside is reasonable.

Er.... no, it was not "terrorism", don't be silly.

It was a nasty and offensive act by a couple of thick Islamophobes. Community service plus naming and shaming should have sufficed.

 

[DotCommunist]

perhaps if this had been a lone bigot or stupid racist bunch of one-off pissed up etc twats then maybe , but they're known members of an extreme right wing group. By the states own rules that means they have to take a hammering of proportions not always meted out in similar circumstances

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Community service plus naming and shaming should have sufficed.

Do you think they'd be particularly shamed?

 

[poului]

It seems to be regular occurrence now every couple of months that I read someone here slamming Dawkins over some comment he's made that finally shows his true colours as a closet reactionary and I go and read the offending tweet and find it's been totally overblown and distorted.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

It seems to be regular occurrence now every couple of months that I read someone here slamming Dawkins over some comment he's made that finally shows his true colours as a closet reactionary and I go and read the offending tweet and find it's been totally overblown and distorted.

What do you make of his tweets posted above? He was pissed? On crack? Having a laugh?

 

[Left]

What's been overblown? The man is basically defending a hate campaign, and it's not the first time.
He's a reactionary bigot who hates Muslims, uppity women and anyone who criticises him for his bullshit.

 

[goldenecitrone]

What's been overblown? The man is basically defending a hate campaign, and it's not the first time.
He's a reactionary bigot who hates Muslims, uppity women and anyone who criticises him for his bullshit.

I haven't seen any evidence that he hates muslims. He doesn't seem overly keen on any kind of religion though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What's been overblown? The man is basically defending a hate campaign, and it's not the first time.
He's a reactionary bigot who hates Muslims, uppity women and anyone who criticises him for his bullshit.

He isn't really doing that. He's downplaying the seriousness of the incident. That's not the same as defending it - it's misrepresenting him to say that.

I happen to agree with him as it happens. Jail for doing something like that is mad. Just as jail for that idiot student from Swansea for posting racist rubbish on the internet was mad. Just as jail for the young woman who posted pro-jihad poetry on the internet was mad.

It's part of a wider sentence escalation: Muslims calling for jihad or whatever are locked up for madly long sentences, and this sentence provides justification for that crackdown: they can say 'look, we're not just picking on Muslims, we protect 'good' Muslims, it's the same for everyone'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is it possible, in this climate, for a privileged white ex-Christian to critique Islam without sounding like a racist arsehole?

Yes

It's obvious that a lot of the "new atheists" (Harris and Hitchens are the worst), as well as Christian and Jewish bigots, use "criticism of Islam" as a smokescreen for their bloodlust and anti-arab bigotry. Some people use "Draw Mohammed Day" as an excuse to draw racist caricatures of Muslims in the name of freedom of expression. This is not legitimate criticism and further marginalises a group that is already highly mmarginalised in our society.

If people want to draw Mohammad, they should be free to do so. You are also free to call them wankers.

Then there are the progressive types who will dismiss any critique of Islamic doctrine or practises as racism and imperialism. I have some sympathy with this view, as we're so often hearing Islam and Muslim attacked by bigots that it can be hard to tell whether someone is arguing in good faith.

This is wrongheaded nonsense.

Take the burqua. It is a disgusting expression of rape culture that many liberals are loath to condemn for fear of being taken for bigots. Should the burqua be banned? Many feminists think so, but so do many bigots who just want to shit on Muslims. Is a ban the best way to deal with the problem? How else can people not directly involved in these communities tackle this problem?

No ban. Absolutely no ban. But again, people should feel free to voice their opinions about the position of women in certain parts of society and to criticise.

We have the issue of gender segregation, where some universities have pandered to Islamic speakers and groups by allowing segregated seating (men up front of course). This is totally unacceptable but again is being exploited by terrible people as another excuse to attack Muslims.

Universities should not, on their premises, ever permit this kind of segregation. They have a wider responsibility to their students to maintain equality of access.

We have Respect throwing women and queer people under the bus so as not to offend reactionary Muslims.

More wrongheaded nonsense.

These are problems that need to be dealt with but it seems like every effort will get hijacked by racists, so that progressives will feel uncomfortable and drop out and the problems persist. We can't rely on Muslims to "police their own" any more than we can rely on Christians to do the same, but criticism from outsiders will understandably be seen by many Muslims as just more of the same bullshit. It's difficult to see how any progress can be made.

Who are the outsiders? This is one society made of lots of smaller groups.

any thoughts, ideas, disagreements?

 

[Left]

He isn't really doing that. He's downplaying the seriousness of the incident. That's not the same as defending it - it's misrepresenting him to say that.

I happen to agree with him as it happens. Jail for doing something like that is mad. Just as jail for that idiot student from Swansea for posting racist rubbish on the internet was mad. Just as jail for the young woman who posted pro-jihad poetry on the internet was mad.

It's part of a wider sentence escalation: Muslims calling for jihad or whatever are locked up for madly long sentences, and this sentence provides justification for that crackdown: they can say 'look, we're not just picking on Muslims, we protect 'good' Muslims, it's the same for everyone'.

He's not explicitly defending it, and Twitter is a fantastic medium for plausible deniability, but he's clearly unconcerned about the incident, which is consistent with his repeatedly demonstrated lack of empathy for Muslims (among others).
Why shouldn't they be jailed? Their only intention was intimidation. What thoughts would go through your head if an area you thought was safe was invaded by three hooded figures? It sounds fucking scary.
People willing to do things like that are dangerous, whether they're violent or not. How do they treat the other people in their lives?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He's not explicitly defending it, and Twitter is a fantastic medium for plausible deniability, but he's clearly unconcerned about the incident, which is consistent with his repeatedly demonstrated lack of empathy for Muslims (among others).
Why shouldn't they be jailed? Their only intention was intimidation. What thoughts would go through your head if an area you thought was safe was invaded by three hooded figures? It sounds fucking scary.
People willing to do things like that are dangerous, whether they're violent or not. How do they treat the other people in their lives?

But what they actually did is wrap bacon around some door handles. Jailing them because you reckon they probably do other worse shit too is not on.