Lack of empathy, or just history?

[Cloo]

This teacher, and others apparently, is complaining that kids seem really unempathetic about the Holocaust, that they joke about it, etc.

But I wonder whether this is not lack of empathy but simply that this is really old history to kids. People my age and older tend to assume that because there's film footage it's 'modern history' and will feel immediate, but I don't think it will necessarily feel that way to kids and the fact is it is quite old history now. Obviously it's still incredibly important but I'm not sure we can expect reverence or immediate empathy from most kids.

 

[mojo pixy]

Indeed. Plus the holocaust is one particular genocide among countless others we don't even think about. Australia, North America, and 400 years of african enslavement are barely mentioned in history class, centuries of colonialism is 'our troubled but essentially proud imperial past', and what with israel's appalling behaviour even as it still centers its own victimhood, its hardly a surprise that a lot of younger people might look askance at the sacred beast of the holocaust.

Not to mention that only about half the victims of it were jews. The millions of gypsies, homosexuals, disabled, communists and others who were slaughtered alongside barely even get a look in when it comes to how we talk about it. There's something that feels wrong about that.

What does concern me is how among many conspiracist quarters the holocaust is actually talked of as a myth. It used to be a very niche far-right view, but as conspiracism spreads (and it is spreading) and as the events slip further into history beyond living memory, I worry this will grow.

 

[Cloo]

What does concern me is how among many conspiracist quarters the holocaust is actually talked of as a myth. It used to be a very niche far-right view, but as conspiracism spreads (and it is spreading) and as the events slip further into history beyond living memory, I worry this will grow.

Yeah, it is a concern.

FWIW, I think in modern teaching other groups do now get a look in, I suppose the focus on Jews was that it probably had the largest impact on us of any group (I mean, something like 3,100,000 Jews in Poland pre WWII, a bit over 100,000 left after the war - I don't think any other group was exterminated on that scale) but as you said above I think there is a worry people will go 'Nah, can't be right'. Literally after the war happened, people sent to help the Jews as what I think became part of the UN did not believe what survivors were telling them. They couldn't believe it. It is worrying that people might start to go 'Well it couldn't have been that many Jews' but there are now people my age still blantantly lacking entire branches of family that should have existed.

 

[Silas Loom]

I’m not keen at all on the “one genocide among countless others” argument. Apart from the sheer numbers involved. which are uniquely horrific, the Shoah remains the only example of genocide carried out by an industrialised Western nation under a democratically elected leader with the connivance of civil society. It’s right to make absolutely sure that children in industrialised Western democracies know what they are capable of, and to prioritise that period of history in curriculums.

The concern that mojo pixy raises in their third paragraph is real. But it is driven partly by the sort of inappropriate and historically inaccurate relativism displayed in their first and second paragraphs.

 

[quimcunx]

They are more removed from it than we were. It's easy to forget that people 30/40 years younger than us do not have the same history of experience we do. They didn't see the same films and TV we did growing up. Think of how many opportunities we had to see black and white films, WWII films, stuff on general TV referencing the war and the holocaust repeatedly. WWII was not on my curriculum at school.

At 13ish I was worried about the nuclear bomb. Cold War fear was everywhere. I said to mum that they'd never actually use it though. She pointed out they had already.

 

[Red Cat]

My eldest was very distressed learning about the Holocaust, I think it was year 8.

Both my children were very upset in school when they did some lessons on slavery in year 6, they came home very distressed, my youngest put a note in the margin of her work to state how upsetting she found it, and I recall my eldest being in tears.

Eldest often talks about how they teach very distressing stuff in school and it doesn't seem to bother most people, they just get on with their day. But she's a very sensitive autistic young person who thinks and feels deeply about the world.

Has the capacity for empathy changed? I've been talking about this with my two because there is a lot of bullying that seems driven by the capacity to be really cruel on social media without an awareness of the consequences, which spills into how people are offline. But more generally, I don't know. Online life amplifies what already exists. I don't recall kids being very empathic when I was at school.

 

[mojo pixy]

I’m not keen at all on the “one genocide among countless others” argument. Apart from the sheer numbers involved. which are uniquely horrific, the Shoah remains the only example of genocide carried out by an industrialised Western nation under a democratically elected leader with the connivance of civil society. It’s right to make absolutely sure that children in industrialised Western democracies know what they are capable of, and to prioritise that period of history in curriculums.

The concern that mojo pixy raises in their third paragraph is real. But it is driven partly by the sort of inappropriate and historically inaccurate relativism displayed in their first and second paragraphs.

I disagree, and I think you're placing unnecessarily narrow goalposts here for how terrible and infamous mass murder gets to be, but I have neither the time nor inclination to get into it any further.

Also: curricula

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m not keen at all on the “one genocide among countless others” argument. Apart from the sheer numbers involved. which are uniquely horrific, the Shoah remains the only example of genocide carried out by an industrialised Western nation under a democratically elected leader with the connivance of civil society. It’s right to make absolutely sure that children in industrialised Western democracies know what they are capable of, and to prioritise that period of history in curriculums.

The concern that mojo pixy raises in their third paragraph is real. But it is driven partly by the sort of inappropriate and historically inaccurate relativism displayed in their first and second paragraphs.

It's like gaza wasn't happening. Lest we forget the third reich wasn't a democracy. Does being appointed Chancellor by hindenburg in 1933 mean Hitler was democratically elected as fuhrer in 1934 - and give him democratically elected status in the 1940s? You've some really peculiar notions and I'm not just talking about your antipathy to unions

 

[moochedit]

They are more removed from it than we were. It's easy to forget that people 30/40 years younger than us do not have the same history of experience we do. They didn't see the same films and TV we did growing up. Think of how many opportunities we had to see black and white films, WWII films, stuff on general TV referencing the war and the holocaust repeatedly. WWII was not on my curriculum at school.

At 13ish I was worried about the nuclear bomb. Cold War fear was everywhere. I said to mum that they'd never actually use it though. She pointed out they had already.

Most of us had grandparents that actually lived through the war (or maybe even parents in some cases) and told them about it, which is not the case for younger people today.

 

[girasol]

I went and asked chatGPT, because I didn't know for certain... So, Silas Loom is correct regarding its uniqueness.

How many atrocities were as deliberate as the holocaust, i.e. with specific intention and methods for killing a specific group of people, i.e. gas chambers?

The Holocaust stands out as a uniquely systematic and industrialized genocide, characterized by the deliberate intention and specific methods to exterminate a particular group, primarily through the use of gas chambers. While many atrocities have involved deliberate targeting of specific groups, few have matched the scale, organization, and mechanization seen in the Holocaust. Here are some examples of genocides and atrocities that were similarly deliberate in their intention to eradicate specific groups:

### 1. Armenian Genocide (1915-1923)
- Perpetrators: Ottoman Empire (primarily the Young Turk government).
- Target: Armenian population within the Ottoman Empire.
- Methods: Mass deportations, death marches, systematic massacres, and deliberate starvation.
- Intent: To eliminate the Armenian population; often considered the first modern genocide.

### 2. Rwandan Genocide (1994)
- Perpetrators: Hutu extremists, including militias like the Interahamwe.
- Target: Tutsi minority and moderate Hutus.
- Methods: Mass killings, often with machetes, in a highly organized and rapid extermination campaign.
- Intent: To eliminate the Tutsi population.

### 3. Cambodian Genocide (1975-1979)
- Perpetrators: Khmer Rouge regime led by Pol Pot.
- Target: Intellectuals, ethnic Vietnamese, Cham Muslims, and perceived political enemies.
- Methods: Execution, forced labor, starvation, and torture.
- Intent: To create a homogenous agrarian society by eliminating perceived enemies.

### 4. Bosnian Genocide (1992-1995)
- Perpetrators: Bosnian Serb forces.
- Target: Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Croats.
- Methods: Mass killings, concentration camps, forced expulsions, and systematic rape.
- Intent: To ethnically cleanse Bosnia of non-Serb populations.

### 5. Holodomor (1932-1933)
- Perpetrators: Soviet government under Joseph Stalin.
- Target: Ukrainian peasants (largely ethnically Ukrainian).
- Methods: Deliberate policies leading to widespread starvation, confiscation of food and crops.
- Intent: To suppress Ukrainian nationalism and resistance to collectivization.

### 6. Herero and Namaqua Genocide (1904-1907)
- Perpetrators: German colonial forces in present-day Namibia.
- Target: Herero and Nama people.
- Methods: Mass killings, forced displacement into the desert, concentration camps.
- Intent: To exterminate the Herero and Nama populations.

While these genocides share the element of deliberate targeting and systematic methods, the Holocaust is often distinguished by its use of industrial methods of mass murder, including gas chambers, and the extensive bureaucratic apparatus developed to execute the genocide. The degree of planning, technological application, and the scale of the Holocaust make it unique in modern history.

 

[Pickman's model]

I went and asked chatGPT, because I didn't know for certain... So, Silas Loom is correct.

How many atrocities were as deliberate as the holocaust, i.e. with specific intention and methods for killing a specific group of people, i.e. gas chambers?

And you trust ai have you factchecked the response at all? Obviously not. Jesus mary and Joseph it's fucking pitiful. You asked chatgpt and swallowed what you got.

 

[girasol]

And you trust ai have you factchecked the response at all? Obviously not. Jesus mary and Joseph it's fucking pitiful

I trust it more than you How about you go and fact check that response and come back with the results if you think that's wrong?

Also, how about you fact check your statement about Gaza? Because it seems you are somehow equating it to the Holocaust? Am I reading that right?

My understanding is that the Holocaust was the only genocide that had an industrial way, purposefully built to kill people. That's what makes it stand out. Is that wrong? (Genuine question, as I said, I wasn't sure, so I asked ChatGPT).

 

[Pickman's model]

I trust it more than you

You're a fucking idiot then. You ought to read Samantha powers' book about america and genocide, it's been mentioned on here before. Your Armenian genocide lasting until 1923 for example. Obvious bollocks.

 

[girasol]

You're a fucking idiot then. You ought to read Samantha powers' book about america and genocide, it's been mentioned on here before. Your Armenian genocide lasting until 1923 for example. Obvious bollocks.

Get some fresh air and relax. What's with the insults? You think I read everything that's posted in here?

What a moron you are. Straight into personal insults. That says a lot about you as a person.

 

[Cloo]

Has the capacity for empathy changed? I've been talking about this with my two because there is a lot of bullying that seems driven by the capacity to be really cruel on social media without an awareness of the consequences, which spills into how people are offline. But more generally, I don't know. Online life amplifies what already exists. I don't recall kids being very empathic when I was at school.

Some of the teachers I've seen discussing this feel there is a degree of desensitisation due to video games etc. Some are also saying kids are even joking about 9/11, but some have pointed out, and I'm inclined to agree, that sometimes kids use humour (even if debatable humour) as a coping mechanism with difficult and horrible subjects.

Obviously, I am moved by images of the Holocaust - when I see photos of piles of corpses at Auschwitz, its with the knowledge some of those bodies could literally be members of my family. But nearly 80 years on I can't expect everyone to have an empathetic response to it though you'd hope people would at least be horrified by the sheer scale or murder.

 

[girasol]

What a pitiful, arrogant man you are, Pickman's. Who the hell knows everything about history and every single genocide there has been? Most people have a life and other things to worry about. You know, kids, family, bills, work... Jesus wept, indeed. Just go away, I'm not engaging with you any further.

Why would you descend into insults and attempt to humilliate someone who's just trying to understand things? How pathetic. I hope you are never a teacher, because you'd be a terrible one.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Most of us had grandparents that actually lived through the war (or maybe even parents in some cases) and told them about it, which is not the case for younger people today.

It makes a big difference. I had a Jewish uncle who had to spend the entire war in hiding in the Netherlands, another uncle present at the liberation of Belsen, a friend whose dad was in a concentration camp (and lived), other friends who lost distant relatives. There was no question about what happened. There still isn't, but there is less immediacy.

 

[Pickman's model]

Get some fresh air and relax. What's with the insults? You think I read everything that's posted in here?

What a moron you are. Straight into personal insults. That says a lot about you as a person.

Er it wasn't me who cast the first insult

 

[Pickman's model]

I trust it more than you How about you go and fact check that response and come back with the results if you think that's wrong?

Also, how about you fact check your statement about Gaza? Because it seems you are somehow equating it to the Holocaust? Am I reading that right?

My understanding is that the Holocaust was the only genocide that had an industrial way, purposefully built to kill people. That's what makes it stand out. Is that wrong? (Genuine question, as I said, I wasn't sure, so I asked ChatGPT).

My understanding is you haven't read silas loom's post to which I replied. Is Israel not a western industrialised democracy?

 

[klang]

When I first came to London from Germany in the late 9ts I worked in a care home for elderly people with learning disabilities. All residents were 60+.

Something was bugging me, and I couldn't get my head around what was going with these people. I asked colleagues and management whether these people had acquired a brain injury in their lives or suffered from an illness affecting their brain function. The answer was always 'nah, born like this'.

It took a while for me to understand: In Germany there were no people with learning disabilities older than 50 years. They were all killed. I had never seen or met a person with a learning disability who was beyond their middle age, hence I never acknowledged their existence or questioned the lack of.

In school I was taught about the holocaust, and as a kid I spent holidays in the GDR at young pioneers camps where anti-fascism and history was an important part of the teachings. But people with learning disabilities who had died in concentration camps always remained a foot note, a by-the-way and 'also'. I guess the value they bring to society is still largely overlooked, not acknowledged, or seen as somewhat an extra burden.

To this day, I feel that Germany's integration efforts don't match the ones of the UK. Not only did the UK have the 'back to the local community' policies in the 90s, but also Germany missed out on a whole generation of people who are 'visibly' learning disabled. I guess Germany is also more used to 'hiding to protect'.

 

[Pickman's model]

What a pitiful, arrogant man you are, Pickman's. Who the hell knows everything about history and every single genocide there has been? Most people have a life and other things to worry about. You know, kids, family, bills, work... Jesus wept, indeed. Just go away, I'm not engaging with you any further.

Why would you descend into insults and attempt to humilliate someone who's just trying to understand things? How pathetic. I hope you are never a teacher, because you'd be a terrible one

I haven't asked you to know all about history. It's about how you find out about history. And using ai just won't do it. It's been widely reported that ai doesn't actually know anything. It makes things up. It is inaccurate. An auld-fashioned Internet search will return more accurate results.

You're really happy to cast insults like calling someone untrustworthy on the basis of er no evidence or previous interaction. It's really weak, casting an insult and being so taken aback when it provokes a response.

 

[CNT36]

This teacher, and others apparently, is complaining that kids seem really unempathetic about the Holocaust, that they joke about it, etc.

But I wonder whether this is not lack of empathy but simply that this is really old history to kids. People my age and older tend to assume that because there's film footage it's 'modern history' and will feel immediate, but I don't think it will necessarily feel that way to kids and the fact is it is quite old history now. Obviously it's still incredibly important but I'm not sure we can expect reverence or immediate empathy from most kids.

Watched the video and it starts with her complaining the kids hadn't already been taught about the Holocaust and being ignorant. Sounds like a problem with the education system rather than the kids. It all seems like stuff she should have challenged and explained. "At least they had food" is an understandable thing to say. On one hand Jews are being exterminated on the other they're being fed (a little). Well go into why they were given food, the differences between camps and selections etc. Teach them. They are not going to know until you do. It's quite a leap from the statements she quotes to a lack of empathy.

I remember we had a serious speech from the teacher before starting the lesson on the Holocaust and were offered the opportunity of leaving the lesson if we thought it would be too upsetting. A couple left but I don't remember any fucking about that day.

 

[Callie]

I haven't asked you to know all about history. It's about how you find out about history. And using ai just won't do it. It's been widely reported that ai doesn't actually know anything. It makes things up. It is inaccurate. An auld-fashioned Internet search will return more accurate results.

A total aside and apologies for interrupting the thread but I think it's useful to compare AI generated images to the spools of text produced. The AI images a lot of people have had a go at don't always well represent what has been asked - it gets bits wrong, it misinterprets and misrepresents. It's going to do the same with the words it provides in response to a question. That's my take anyway girasol

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I remember we had a serious speech from the teacher before starting the lesson on the Holocaust and were offered the opportunity of leaving the lesson if we thought it would be too upsetting. A couple left but I don't remember any fucking about that day.

We had a Holocaust survivor come into school to speak. She was quite elderly then (this would be in about 1991/92 I think) and I don't know how many schools she'd visited before she got to rural Lincolnshire but it must have been a lot. It certainly made an impact. I don't imagine there's a lot of that happening now given how old any survivors left must be now.

 

[two sheds]

Not to mention that only about half the victims of it were jews. The millions of gypsies, homosexuals, disabled, communists and others who were slaughtered alongside barely even get a look in when it comes to how we talk about it. There's something that feels wrong about that.

Do you have a reference for that? I'd thought the great majority were Jews.

 

[mojo pixy]

Do you have a reference for that? I'd thought the great majority were Jews.

I pulled it out of my memory and I'll let someone else check if they want but IIRC ~6 million were jews and ~5 million weren't. It was a majority but not a great majority.

I seem to recall ~3-4 million were gypsy/rom? And actually IIRC nearly all (10m+?) were poles, for what that's worth.

Happy to be corrected, I'm having a really busy day so will read up later if I need to.

 

[Aladdin]

Myself and another teacher taught the Holocaust every year as part of our history curriculum.
We both took very different routes and used different methods apart from teaching the facts...
He showed videos and photographs. I had the class read Boy in Striped Pyjamas and we listened to holocaust survivers describe what happened to them.
We then both brought our classes together to have discussions and information sharing.
It's difficult to comprehend as an adult just how horrific the Holocaust was ... from start to finish
The abhorrently calculated extermination of Jewish people...disabled...gypsies.... I worked with teenagers who had some learning difficulties. They would have been called "retarded" in 1940. They gradually realised that they would have been exterminated in Nazi Germany during the second world war...
It's really important that children realise that this happened in Europe. That genocides also happened in Russia and Armenia and in other parts of the world. That they happened in recent history too.. Bosnia.. That Ireland experienced what was a genocide in all but name when 1 million starved to death while the country was producing more food than it ever produced.

History is a tight subject here with a tight curriculum. Not much wiggle room for spreading out. Its probably similar in the UK. We are still calling the Starvation a "Famine" in some of the text books.. blaming it on potato blight. But teachers have the wherewithall to go a step further and share the truth. Same must happen with the Holocaust. History must be truthful above all else.

I'm not working anymore but I listen to my relatives kids talk about what they're learning. They are 16yrs and 14yrs old. They are seeing what is happening in Gaza on their phones and they are comparing it with ehat they have learned about genocides in school.

 

[klang]

They would have been called "retarded" in 1940.

'subhuman'.

 

[gosub]

Had the pleasure and the privilege of Winkle Brown in my office for a morning before he died, Belsen didn't come up but as WW2 fading into history more brings home to me, as i get older, how recent it actually was to my lifetime. Also had the displeasure of an afternoon down arguing with a holocaust denier, what made it worse was his Grandfather had been at the liberation of Belsen with Winkle Brown. He got a lot of his 'argument' from David Irvine, ignoring his own Grandfathers experience. If there was any truth to the gas chambers being exaggerated, I suspect it is a result of underestimating fatalities from the death marches rather than anything else.

Random bit of trivia...the 'vet' from the Specsavers advert with the fur hat. - was the fella that served the court summons on David Irvine

 

[Silas Loom]

Do you have a reference for that? I'd thought the great majority were Jews.

This is why I wasn’t happy with Mojo Pixy’s numbers. In brief, the number of gypsies killed in the Holocaust is usually estimated at 500k, disabled people at 270k, homosexuals (that is, able bodied Aryan homosexuals) 15k. Serbs and freemasons are also significant groups, but the total of non-Jews killed in death camps, mass executions etc is still only around 1.1m compared with the fairly well attested 6m Jews.

For those who want to minimise Jewish suffering under the Nazis, the best statistics to deploy are the numbers of Russian and Polish POWs and civilians who were murdered. That gets to nearly 10m according to some accounts. But much of this was fog-of-war stuff, not really akin to organised extermination, and it’s a tricky argument to deploy in good faith.