Labour & Anti-Semitism.
- Thread starter cantsin
- Start date
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
This is also racist. The Star of David is not the Israeli flag.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
It's also very much not a valid news story, however.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Never said it was.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
I never said what you said.
I saw the photo above on the Telegraph website earlier with an accompanying story, in which context it was a very clear example of non-news both-sidesing.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I was sent it on a group chat, image only, and I thought it fitted the conversation that had been happening of late on this thread. I had no idea any news media had featured it.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
I'm not accusing you of anything Danny, honestly.
Yes, covering up someone's heritage-related jewelry is not on, and only more so if you are putting a sticker on someone's memorial.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I accept that. We’re cool.
I think I'm right in saying that that's Sean Matgamna's theory.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
The next bit in the piece is at the heart of it for me.
It's a measure of how twisted things have become, in the West particularly, where something like that could be constructed. Where Zionism has built built a lie and twisted it into truth to redefine opposition to Zionism as antisemitic or even terroristic. Palestine was taken by force and the Palestinians ethnically cleansed. Palestine and the Palestinians either live in exile or under occupation and have their lives controlled event to the point their water can be turned off by Israel. But the most simple statement of that, Free Palestine, is seen as beyond the pale, an act of aggression or something even worse, anti-semitism.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I wish whoever did it hadn't done. I wish someone would have just removed it. As to it being racist, I'm not sure though it was certainly disrespecting a religion and highly charged in the present context. But that context is 30000 dead in just a few months. Yes, we should fight racism/religious hatred and the rest wherever they occur, but, well, I struggling to get that fussed amid the wider horrors.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
I reckon instead of taking a photo and writing a fucking article about it, I'd have just removed the sticker.
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
Surely the context is a huge rise in anyone Jewish being seen as in some way connected to the actions of the crook Netanyahu, his far-right coalition of oddball messianic psychos and the actions of the IDF, including in this case someone who died 13 years ago having never said anything political in her far too short life.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Someone put a sticker on a statue while a brutal attack is going on. They were wrong to do it and it must be very upsetting for her family. But beyond that it seems like a minor detail.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
There isn't ever an acceptable level of antisemitism due to horrible things happening elsewhere.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
You're aware that the use of "minor detail" is a poor choice of words with an ignoble background when referring to anti semitism?
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
It wasn't just a random sticker stuck randomly to a random statue; it was a specific sticker stuck to a specific place on a specific statue making a specific point that all Jews, even long dead ones = the slaughter in Gaza, at a time when blaming Jews for the actions of the Israeli state is increasing. Statues, symbols and flags have meaning as much as words do and the message has been noticed and understood, not just by the Winehouse family.
Don't downplay antisemitism.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Indeed. It is possible to have more than one thought in one’s head at any time. I both deplore the rise in antisemitism and the current situation in Gaza and its precedents over many decades. There is no need to makes these part of an equation. In fact it’s vital we don’t.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
In response to a few posts: suppose I'd want to make a distinction between my emotional and political responses. With regard to the former I (obviously) agree that all instances of racism need to be opposed. Not just as a truism, but as a reality. I think we might quibble about the intentions of the person stickering, whether it was an attempt to tar all Jewish people or a random bit of stickering as part of the protests in the current conflict. Even if it was a random bit of stickering that just hit on 'something Jewish', I condemn it. It was offensive to the Winehouse family and yes to Jewish people. But to reduce this down to my emotions, admitting to something that won't be too popular, it just doesn't appal me in the context of slaughter. Perhaps I am doing a balancing but I just thought I'd be honest.
More analytically/politically, yes certainly, oppose all instances of racism, anti-semitism or fucking around with people's religious beliefs. Yes, also, symbols are at the heart of this. Yes, also, the Jewish community will see this as one more amid a significant increase in anti-semitism. But where I'm going with this is precisely the battle around the symbolic. As has been mentioned, a sticker which could (and should have) been removed, becomes the stuff of national newspaper headlines. This has also been a conflict where the 'criticism of Israel is not the same as anti-semitism' line has been under threat. Where politicians have linked the Palestinians with Hamas and terror - something done emphatically by Netanyahu and the Israeli state, to the point where the Paestinians 'deserved' bombing becasue they hadn't ousted Hamas. It's there in calls that Labour should oust anyone even present at the meeting where Azhar Ali spoke and the way they have suspended others such as Andy McDonald. And of course it's there in the attempt to brand even Free Palestine as anti-semitic. All of this is the exerts power on the Palestinians and anti-war activists.
Maybe a bit of unnecessary self justification, but on here I've long argued the left needs to purge itself of antisemitism and/or the conspiracy theories that accompany it. I've said that in relation to Labour's battles over AS and also criticising Galloway, Respect and various opportunists. That remains the case. But that itself shouldn't stop us being wise to the way AS is used to characterise opponents of the Israeli state's actions.
More analytically/politically, yes certainly, oppose all instances of racism, anti-semitism or fucking around with people's religious beliefs. Yes, also, symbols are at the heart of this. Yes, also, the Jewish community will see this as one more amid a significant increase in anti-semitism. But where I'm going with this is precisely the battle around the symbolic. As has been mentioned, a sticker which could (and should have) been removed, becomes the stuff of national newspaper headlines. This has also been a conflict where the 'criticism of Israel is not the same as anti-semitism' line has been under threat. Where politicians have linked the Palestinians with Hamas and terror - something done emphatically by Netanyahu and the Israeli state, to the point where the Paestinians 'deserved' bombing becasue they hadn't ousted Hamas. It's there in calls that Labour should oust anyone even present at the meeting where Azhar Ali spoke and the way they have suspended others such as Andy McDonald. And of course it's there in the attempt to brand even Free Palestine as anti-semitic. All of this is the exerts power on the Palestinians and anti-war activists.
Maybe a bit of unnecessary self justification, but on here I've long argued the left needs to purge itself of antisemitism and/or the conspiracy theories that accompany it. I've said that in relation to Labour's battles over AS and also criticising Galloway, Respect and various opportunists. That remains the case. But that itself shouldn't stop us being wise to the way AS is used to characterise opponents of the Israeli state's actions.
PTK
Paul Kegan
Yep, that is what I was thinking. Which makes me wonder whether the person who took the photograph placed the sticker.
I'd say it was racist and disrespectful of a religion for sure whether or not that was the intention. Yesterday Danny posted something like "The Star of David is not the Israeli flag" and I'm not disputing that. There was however a nagging thought that when a state adopts a symbol as part of its flag then proceeds to carry out ethnic cleansing and kill thousands of people that symbol may take a beating. It doesn't make it any less hurtful for those on the receiving end but there's a small hope that some of this is coming from a place of stupidity or misplaced anger rather than hatred.
I am quite fussed about it. It is not on the level of 30,000 people dead but the effect it could have on people and communities here is horrible.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Some quite impressive moral cowardice by the Archbishop of Canterbury here. He won't meet with a Lutheran Pastor from Bethlehem because the guy spoke on the same platform as Corbyn. The Archbishop's spokesperson says they 'don't comment yadda yadda' but makes it clear with the bit below that they are going with the line Corbyn = Antisemitism. With slippery logic like that, Welby will be in the next Labour Cabinet.
Link here
This is the same Justin Welby who did an interview with antisemitic propagandist Alastair Campbell.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Ooops. Ta.
Cloo
Banana for scale
I think criticism of Labour antisemitism is meaningless unless other parties are put under similar scrutiny. Otherwise all it's saying is that you want to use Jews to beat left wing politics over the head with, which is exactly what they're doing and pisses me off endlessly. I bet if you scrutised all Tory candidates' social media you'd find some nasty shit too, but then that doesn't serve their agenda. 'Ohhh, we care so much about the pooooor Jeeeeeeews! Look at these horrid Labours! They'll surely become the Third Reich if elected!'
The sad thing is that too many of my fellow Jews do fall in with the last bit, which just seems ridiculous to me. No one in politics or even any remotely plausible political force in the UK is militating to structurally and legislatively oppress us. If I were a Muslim I'd have much more reason to be worried about that kind of thing.
The sad thing is that too many of my fellow Jews do fall in with the last bit, which just seems ridiculous to me. No one in politics or even any remotely plausible political force in the UK is militating to structurally and legislatively oppress us. If I were a Muslim I'd have much more reason to be worried about that kind of thing.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
This is some pretty mental shit:
Archbishop said he could not meet Bethlehem Lutheran Munther Isaac if he shared platform with former Labour leader (Corbyn):
www.theguardian.com
Isaac really nails the CoE though:
“This sums up the Church of England. They danced around positions, and ended up saying nothing. They lack the courage to say things.”
Archbishop said he could not meet Bethlehem Lutheran Munther Isaac if he shared platform with former Labour leader (Corbyn):
Pastor says Welby would not meet him if he spoke at Palestine rally with Corbyn
Archbishop said he could not meet Bethlehem Lutheran Munther Isaac if he shared platform with former Labour leader, Isaac says
Isaac really nails the CoE though:
“This sums up the Church of England. They danced around positions, and ended up saying nothing. They lack the courage to say things.”
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