Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[teqniq]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that the one guy who claimed that Israel let 7th October happen is simply factually incorrect; this is not antisemitism. Nor is the other guy saying 'fucking Israel'. Saying 'fucking Jews' on the other hand most definitely is.

E2a unless, of course they are working off of the IHRA definition of antisemitism which Labour adopted as I believe it conflates criticism of Israel with antisemitism. If this is the case, well that's come back and bitten them on the arse.

 

[Cerv]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that the one guy who claimed that Israel let 7th October happen is simply factually incorrect; this is not antisemitism.

it is incorrect.
and when you ask why someone would parrot such conspiraloon bollocks. it's like why did loons say Mossad did 9-11 or many other examples?
so it's hard to not have the suspicion that the comments comes from a place of anti-semitism. quacks like a duck a bit.
not certain though. but close enough to give you worry. could be a racist or could just have poor judgement and be spouting nonsense indistinguishable from racist.
either way they're probably not the best candidate and shouldn't have been selected. if the party had done proper due diligence.

 

[brogdale]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that the one guy who claimed that Israel let 7th October happen is simply factually incorrect; this is not antisemitism. Nor is the other guy saying 'fucking Israel'. Saying 'fucking Jews' on the other hand most definitely is.

E2a unless, of course they are working off of the IHRA definition of antisemitism which Labour adopted as I believe it conflates criticism of Israel with antisemitism. If this is the case, well that's come back and bitten them on the arse.

As I read it, something said does not necessarily have to be antisemitic to breach the LP's CoC on antisemitism:

7. An area of particular difficulty, and the subject of much academic and legal debate around the IHRA definition, is the relationship between antisemitism and criticism of the State of Israel in the context of the long-running and complex dispute about political relations in the region. This is a dispute about which people have widely diverging and deeply held opinions, which can be closely bound with questions of personal identity. The expression of opinions on this topic can easily offend or upset people holding an opposite opinion. The European Court of Human Rights has long recognised that the principle of freedom of expression protects views which “offend, shock or disturb” society or a section of it. But the Court has also emphasised that the principle does not protect the expression of racist views or “hate speech”. Nor, as Chakrabarti made clear, should the party tolerate the expression of views in a manner simply intended to upset or offend. A “civility of discourse” is essential. In general terms, the expression of even contentious views in this area will not be treated as antisemitism unless accompanied by specific antisemitic content (such as the use of antisemitic tropes) or by other evidence of antisemitic intent. In short, the Party will encourage considered and respectful debate on these difficult topics, but will not tolerate name-calling and abuse.

 

[hitmouse]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that the one guy who claimed that Israel let 7th October happen is simply factually incorrect; this is not antisemitism. Nor is the other guy saying 'fucking Israel'. Saying 'fucking Jews' on the other hand most definitely is.

E2a unless, of course they are working off of the IHRA definition of antisemitism which Labour adopted as I believe it conflates criticism of Israel with antisemitism. If this is the case, well that's come back and bitten them on the arse.

Mentioned on the other thread, but I think the claim about October 7th may or may not be inherently antisemitic in itself, but it does seem to be straying into conspiratorial thinking, and so is a bit too close to comfort to images of Jews as shadowy string-pullers etc. Still curious about what Ali's apparent "other comments" that led to the suspension were.
On the other hand, saying "fucking Israel", and indeed saying that British citizens fighting for the IDF should face charges, is just straightforward fair comment, if that's antisemitic then so is virtually any sentence, other than maybe "I think bombing civilians is very good".

 

[Pickman's model]

it is incorrect.
and when you ask why someone would parrot such conspiraloon bollocks. it's like why did loons say Mossad did 9-11 or many other examples?
so it's hard to not have the suspicion that the comments comes from a place of anti-semitism. quacks like a duck a bit.
not certain though. but close enough to give you worry. could be a racist or could just have poor judgement and be spouting nonsense indistinguishable from racist.
either way they're probably not the best candidate and shouldn't have been selected. if the party had done proper due diligence.

How could they be the best candidate when they were anointed by shammer?

 

[zahir]

Mentioned on the other thread, but I think the claim about October 7th may or may not be inherently antisemitic in itself, but it does seem to be straying into conspiratorial thinking, and so is a bit too close to comfort to images of Jews as shadowy string-pullers etc. Still curious about what Ali's apparent "other comments" that led to the suspension were.

It seems to be this as reported in the Mail:

In the recording, Mr Ali appeared to blame the media for the suspension of Andy McDonald from the Labour Party. Mr McDonald, the MP for Middlesbrough, used the phrase 'between the river and the sea' last year. The slogan has been described as 'a staple of anti-Semitic discourse'. But in the recording, Mr Ali said Mr McDonald 'shouldn't have been suspended' before adding: 'The media – and some of the people in the media from certain Jewish quarters – were giving crap about what he said.'

eta: also

At the meeting, he also said: 'Israel has that plan, which is to get rid of [the Palestinians] from Gaza, push them out...

'And then they've got Gaza to themselves, and you know, they'll say because the security risks to Israel and the Jewish state, you know, we can't come back. So we've actually said that, in our letter, (this) is about a land grab.'

 

[brogdale]

Not entirely sure this is the right thread...but...in an alarming report on recorded antisemitic incidents from the CST, I couldn't help but notice that >10% of the instances were saying or writing "free Palestine":


I can't help feeling that recording these statements as antisemitic has a danger of undermining their important message about the reality of rising antisemitism.

 

[inva]

Not entirely sure this is the right thread...but...in an alarming report on recorded antisemitic incidents from the CST, I couldn't help but notice that >10% of the instances were saying or writing "free Palestine":

View attachment 412254
I can't help feeling that recording these statements as antisemitic has a danger of undermining their important message about the reality of rising antisemitism.

Without knowing any more detail about the incidents the explanation in the quote you've posted seems reasonable.

 

[Spandex]

Not entirely sure this is the right thread...but...in an alarming report on recorded antisemitic incidents from the CST, I couldn't help but notice that >10% of the instances were saying or writing "free Palestine":

View attachment 412254
I can't help feeling that recording these statements as antisemitic has a danger of undermining their important message about the reality of rising antisemitism.

As the sentence after the one you highlight makes clear, it is about the context.

If I saw someone with a skull cap and, apros of nothing, started shouting Free Palestine at them, what would be going on there?

 

[danny la rouge]

Not entirely sure this is the right thread...but...in an alarming report on recorded antisemitic incidents from the CST, I couldn't help but notice that >10% of the instances were saying or writing "free Palestine":

View attachment 412254
I can't help feeling that recording these statements as antisemitic has a danger of undermining their important message about the reality of rising antisemitism.

“Free Palestine” is in itself not at antisemitic phrase, but shouting it at random Jewish people means that the shouter is collectively blaming Jews for the actions of the Israeli state. That is indeed antisemitic.

It is analogous to when Liam Neeson [said he] went out looking for any black guy to beat up after hearing someone close to him had been raped by a particular black man.

 

[Pickman's model]

As the sentence after the one you highlight makes clear, it is about the context.

If I saw someone with a skull cap and, apros of nothing, started shouting Free Palestine at them, what would be going on there?

all the people i've seen wearing skullcaps recently have either been senior catholic clergy or protesting against the zionist genocide. i don't think i'd shout 'free palestine' at either cohort.

 

[The39thStep]

Jews and the Russian Revolution

 

[brogdale]

“Free Palestine” is in itself not at antisemitic phrase, but shouting it at random Jewish people means that the shouter is collectively blaming Jews for the actions of the Israeli state. That is indeed antisemitic.

It is analogous to when Liam Neeson [said he] went out looking for any black guy to beat up after hearing someone close to him had been raped by a particular black man.

Yes, I definitely concur with that but what troubles me about the broad CST inclusion of saying/writing "free Palestine" incidents is that it could include those of us who have said such a thing faced with this:

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes, I definitely concur with that but what troubles me about the broad CST inclusion of saying/writing "free Palestine" incidents is that it could those of us who have said such a thing faced with this:

View attachment 412257

Context. That looks like it may be a rally defending the actions of the Israeli state.

 

[brogdale]

It is completely correct to distinguish between people who identify as Jewish and the actions of the Israeli state, but when those things are themselves conflated by Jewish people in the UK it seems a stretch to define counter-argument as antisemitic.

 

[brogdale]

Context. That looks like it may be a rally defending the actions of the Israeli state.

Exactly, but I'm assuming that the CST would define chants of "free Palestine" in that context as AS.

 

[andysays]

It is completely correct to distinguish between people who identify as Jewish and the actions of the Israeli state, but when those things are themselves conflated by Jewish people in the UK it seems a stretch to define counter-argument as antisemitic.

...by some Jewish people... (not having a go, but I think this needs to be made clear)

Given the attempted conflation, I think it's even more important for us to make the distinction

 

[danny la rouge]

It is completely correct to distinguish between people who identify as Jewish and the actions of the Israeli state, but when those things are themselves conflated by Jewish people in the UK it seems a stretch to define counter-argument as antisemitic.

They are conflated by some Jewish people in the UK. And those people are not correct in doing so.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not entirely sure this is the right thread...but...in an alarming report on recorded antisemitic incidents from the CST, I couldn't help but notice that >10% of the instances were saying or writing "free Palestine":

View attachment 412254
I can't help feeling that recording these statements as antisemitic has a danger of undermining their important message about the reality of rising antisemitism.

Sprayed on a synagogue, it's antisemitic in intent. Sprayed on Keir Starmer's car, it isn't.

I can't comment on the everyday experiences of Jewish people in the UK, other than to say that they will vary a lot. But the likes of Starmer, the Jewish Chronicle and everyone else conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism don't help here. They are inflaming the situation. And I can say that the vast majority of people marching for Palestine are not doing so out of antisemitic intent. There will be people who wrongly believe otherwise because of the likes of Starmer and the JC.

 

[brogdale]

They are conflated by some Jewish people in the UK. And those people are not correct in doing so.

Yes, but my point was about the breadth of the CST definition. By their definition of saying or writing “free Palestine”, in the context of those flags of the Israeli state, doing so would almost certainly be aimed at Jewish institutions (organisations) behind the demo. In that way the expression of a desire for free Palestine is defined as AS. This seems to undermine the importance of their overall message about the rise of AS.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Jews and the Russian Revolution

View attachment 412256

More proof there's no way to defend Israel's current actions that doesn't involve just making shit up.

 

[Pickman's model]

More proof there's no way to defend Israel's current actions that doesn't involve just making shit up.

Oh I think you can defend israel's current actions without making shit up. That is, it's possible. But in so doing you'd out yourself as a supporter of genocide. So a liar or a genocidal shit. Neither a good look.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, but my point was about the breadth of the CST definition. By their definition saying or writing “free Palestine” in the context of those flags of the Israeli state would almost certainly be aimed at Jewish institutions (organisations) behind the demo. In that way the expression of a desire for free Palestine is defined as AS. This seems to undermine the importance of their overall message about the rise of AS.

Get the point. Free Palestine sprayed on the office of the Jewish Chronicle would be recorded as a hate crime. But my guess is that most of these incidents have occurred at synagogues, schools, etc. The rise in abuse is no doubt real, as is the rise in anti-Muslim abuse over the same period. Imo the best strategy is to deal with both of these together - solidarity between the two groups experiencing a rise in hostility.

 

[brogdale]

They are conflated by some Jewish people in the UK. And those people are not correct in doing so.

Might those who do so be influenced by the Israeli state's own self-identification as a Jewish state?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Might those who do so be influenced by the Israeli state's own self-identification as a Jewish state?

Not just a Jewish state, the Jewish state. So failure to support Israel is anti-Jewish. Inasmuch as reasoning can be seen in Starmer's position, this appears to be his jumping off point.

 

[brogdale]

Not just a Jewish state, the Jewish state. So failure to support Israel is anti-Jewish. Inasmuch as reasoning can be seen in Starmer's position, this appears to be his jumping off point.

I suppose what I've been banging on about all day is that, IMO, saying or writing "free Palestine" towards a Jewish person or institution who says they support the actions of the Israeli state is not antisemitic. But, I'm happy to be corrected.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I suppose what I've been banging on about all day is that, IMO, saying or writing "free Palestine" towards a Jewish person or institution who says they support the actions of the Israeli state is not antisemitic. But, I'm happy to be corrected.

So saying it to someone at the Jewish Chronicle isn't the same as saying it to someone at a synagogue. I think there's broad agreement about that.

TBH the UK is far from the worst example of this phenomenon. In Germany, saying 'From the River to the Sea' is now illegal. In the US, people have been losing their jobs for saying 'Free Palestine'. By comparison, the UK has been relatively sane. The Braverman rhetoric of 'hate marches', etc, never really gained traction, and it is only explicit support for Hamas that has been deemed illegal.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not just a Jewish state, the Jewish state. So failure to support Israel is anti-Jewish. Inasmuch as reasoning can be seen in Starmer's position, this appears to be his jumping off point.

He should choose somewhere rather higher to leap from

 

[Ax^]

It is analogous to when Liam Neeson [said he] went out looking for any black guy to beat up after hearing someone close to him had been raped by a particular black man.

which was ballshit bragging btw

as you struggle to find a black man in Ballymena today let alone if the friggin 70's during the troubles

derail over /

 

[redsquirrel]

Jews and the Russian Revolution

View attachment 412256

Wow - Wonder if they've been talking to Mason