Joint Enterprise case in Manchester - Life sentences for text messages?

[l'Otters]

Kids in Manchester facing long sentences, for sending texts when grieving for their murdered friend.

I haven’t read much about the case until now. My impressions so far are, shocked, but have a feeling I shouldn’t be. It’s fucking tragic.

More info:


Plain text statement about the verdict

Twitter post about the verdict

Twitter thread about what we can do to support and what is happening next.

Plain text statement about the boys

 

[SpookyFrank]

Couple of our youth club kids got done for this a few years back. 15 they were. Done for murder but never touched the blade. Ten years each IIRC.

Still, I'm sure a few more sentences like that will have youth violence sorted out in no time.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Never joint enterprise when a copper kills someone is it? Just bad apples.

 

[tonysingh]

Joint enterprise is a fucking travesty.

 

[l'Otters]

I’ve come across joint enterprise before, sat through a trial where that was the charge.

Somehow I assumed that the offence that was planned as a joint thing had to have happened in order to prosecute them for it tho

 

[BigTom]

Gang GUILTY of plotting to avenge 16-year-old leader's murder in revenge attack

They will all be sentenced on June 30

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

This is an article about the trial/events for anyone else wanting some background. Obviously this newspaper article portrays the events as gang warfare which the statements in the OP deny as the case. I wouldn't have a clue, whatever is the case, I agree joint enterprise is shit and although I understand the reason it exists, seems harsh here when people will have been blowing off steam and may never have had any intention of actually doing anything.

 

[platinumsage]

This isn't joint enterprise is it? It's conspiracy to murder and cause GBH.

"They never harmed anyone" isn't the point, unless you think conspiracy to murder shouldn't be an offence?

I read the "plain text statements" in the OP but if they remain entirely anonymous they don't carry much weight.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

This isn't joint enterprise is it? It's conspiracy to murder and cause GBH.

"They never harmed anyone" isn't the point, unless you think conspiracy to murder shouldn't be an offence?

Well they had previously harmed someone.... members of the gang had already "chased down and attacked a member of the RTD in Piccadilly Gardens. The victim was punched, kicked and stabbed in broad daylight in the mid afternoon".

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Kids in Manchester facing long sentences, for sending texts when grieving for their murdered friend.

I haven’t read much about the case until now. My impressions so far are, shocked, but have a feeling I shouldn’t be. It’s fucking tragic.

More info:


Plain text statement about the verdict

Twitter post about the verdict

Twitter thread about what we can do to support and what is happening next.

Plain text statement about the boys

Reading a bit more about the case it seems they were slightly more than just “grieving for a friend”, no?

 

[hitmouse]

I mean, this is the thing you have to be careful with in conspiracy/joint enterprise cases. Clearly, some people did some dark shit and I don't want to excuse or minimise that. But that doesn't mean that you can be confident that the convictions of all ten are justified.
Another thread, suggests that three were directly involved in attacks, the case against another four sounds extremely weak, with the other three being somewhere in between:

I read the "plain text statements" in the OP but if they remain entirely anonymous they don't carry much weight.

From looking around a little bit I'm fairly confident they're from Roxy Legane, does that help at all?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I've heard of a case where an individual was threatening to feed other people to some penguins. Others joined in and encouraged this bad apple. But there were scores, nay hundreds, of associates who never reported this to the police. Should they all be prosecuted, do you think?

 

[platinumsage]

I mean, this is the thing you have to be careful with in conspiracy/joint enterprise cases. Clearly, some people did some dark shit and I don't want to excuse or minimise that. But that doesn't mean that you can be confident that the convictions of all ten are justified.
Another thread, suggests that three were directly involved in attacks, the case against another four sounds extremely weak, with the other three being somewhere in between:

From looking around a little bit I'm fairly confident they're from Roxy Legane, does that help at all?

That's the person behind the KidsOfColourHQ Twiter account isn't it.

It seems to me as if they're seeking to minimise the seriousness of these offences these men were convicted of e.g. "not shown at any harm for this conspiracy case", and "linked by one chat" etc

That's the whole point about conspiracy though - it doesn't require violence or infliction of harm. In the end a jury were convinced the defendants planned to kill or seriously injure someone.

This wasn't just tough talk, it was specific plotting:

"Oni, Ojo, Kalumda, Jitoboh, Thorne and Thomas were all alleged to have sought out weapons and made efforts to find RTD members. Adedeji, Savi, Okoya and Okunola were alleged to have tried to locate targets and find information about their whereabouts."

 

[hitmouse]

That's the person behind the KidsOfColourHQ Twiter account isn't it.

It seems to me as if they're seeking to minimise the seriousness of these offences these men were convicted of e.g. "not shown at any harm for this conspiracy case", and "linked by one chat" etc

That's the whole point about conspiracy though - it doesn't require violence or infliction of harm. In the end a jury were convinced the defendants planned to kill or seriously injure someone.

This wasn't just tough talk, it was specific plotting:

"Oni, Ojo, Kalumda, Jitoboh, Thorne and Thomas were all alleged to have sought out weapons and made efforts to find RTD members. Adedeji, Savi, Okoya and Okunola were alleged to have tried to locate targets and find information about their whereabouts."

It was specific plotting in the media's account of the prosecution's case, yes. Would be wary of taking that for granted without seeing the actual evidence.

 

[platinumsage]

It was specific plotting in the media's account of the prosecution's case, yes. Would be wary of taking that for granted without seeing the actual evidence.

Not sure we'll get to see the actual evidence. It's a court reporter vs someone on Twitter who is evidently seeking to minimize everything these men have done:

"tried to locate targets and find information about their whereabouts." vs "some are on trial simply for some messages after a friend’s death, which led to no harm"

I know which sounds more credible to me.

 

[hitmouse]

Not sure we'll get to see the actual evidence. It's a court reporter vs someone on Twitter who is evidently seeking to minimize everything these men have done:

"tried to locate targets and find information about their whereabouts." vs "some are on trial simply for some messages after a friend’s death, which led to no harm"

I know which sounds more credible to me.

Fuck me, I hope you're never on a jury if that's all it takes to make your mind up.

 

[platinumsage]

Fuck me, I hope you're never on a jury if that's all it takes to make your mind up.

I’m asked to think which is the more plausible of two accounts, that’s all. It’s not “making my mind up” as if I was a jury member ffs. I made it clear we don’t have a view of the actual evidence.

I've read many credible and worrying accounts of miscarriages of justice in my time, but this is definitely at the "his mum said he wouldn't hurt a fly" end of the spectrum.

 

[hitmouse]

Thread with updates here: