Is Homosexual Identity Dependant on Homophobia ?

[Shippou-Sensei]

Forgive is a tricky term

I understand who I was and how I was that. I try to live my life in a way I wouldn't seriously regret later.

I think forgiveness comes from those negativity impacted by you own actions. I can't forgive myself because I'm not the one who can make that choice (I am influenced by the reception of my actions but not nearly as much as those the terms were applied to). Also not everyone will agree on that forgiveness.

I am OK with who I am now. Even though I recognise I still have flaws.

My hang ups do impact my thought on how others should view me but I'm willing to give myself a pass .

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Apologies if I have sidetracked a thread. 3am witterings.


All of what I have said (i think) can be applied to people's feelings about homosexuality.

I lucked out by all my immediate family bring Bi and having plenty of beloved Gay and Lesbian aunts and uncles.
However i kinda think all othering shares a common root so it's not bad to share experiences

Please forgive drunken and sleep deprived rants to the choir.

 

[8ball]

Forgive is a tricky term

I understand who I was and how I was that. I try to live my life in a way I wouldn't seriously regret later.

I think forgiveness comes from those negativity impacted by you own actions. I can't forgive myself because I'm not the one who can make that choice. Also not everyone will agree on that forgiveness.

I am OK with who I am now. Even though I recognise I still have flaws.

My hang ups do impact my thought on how others should view me but I'm willing to give myself a pass .

You can forgive yourself. The original meaning of forgiveness means “to forego revenge”. Revenge is not yours to take, and I’m pretty sure no one is seeking it.

Nobody benefits from us beating ourselves up when any lessons have already been learned.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I'm not planning revenge on my self

I do plenty of that unconsciousnesly!

I do think anyone who wants vengeance against me is a bit wierd

But who am I to judge. I bet that CEO didn't expect Luigi to cap him

 

[friendofdorothy]

Sorry I don't know how you identify. Where you that 'enemy'?

I was asking were you a man.

Yeah, think she was mid/late 20’s and I was in my early 20’s (young, straight, v innocent and accepting).

She was a junior doctor at the time. I hope everything worked out. She was quite down on men generally (can’t argue with that), but was a really lovely person and would have made a good doctor.

You said you were young and straight, but i still have no idea if you are cis male or not? (Sorry if its obvious in other threads but i have a shit memory)

 

[8ball]

I was asking were you a man.

You said you were young and straight, but i still have no idea if you are cis male or not? (Sorry if its obvious in other threads but i have a shit memory)

Yes, cis male, sorry.

 

[brixtonscot]

I have missed most of the thread but my initial thoughts are

Homosexual identity is inate. The society you are born into doesn't change that.

Are you saying that homosexuals are born with innate ( inherent?) homosexual identity ?

Do you not think that sexual identity and behaviour/activity are quite different ?

If we consider sexual attraction as a significant factor in overall sexuality ,
do you think we are ALL born with our sexual attractions already formed ?

Or that all of our sexual attractions - of which gender/biological sex is potentially only one
component factor among many that could be formed , consciously or unconsciously , by all sorts
of changing factors which determine our particular likes and/or dislikes from our own personal experiences ?

Or do you think that its just homosexuals who’s sexually attractions are somehow already predetermined,
at birth ?

 

[brixtonscot]

We probably only know a small bit of how the development of sexuality works.

Very true……yet is much of the current mainstream lgbt movement largely based on the premise
of “ born this way “ ?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

i keep thinking i'll respond to this thread, then another angle gets added, so will probably do in instalments.

i'm not entirely comfortable with arguing about whether it's nature / nurture or what. some people are LGBTQ+, does it matter why or should 'we' and the rest of society just (as stonewall put it) deal with it?

arguing for 'born' will encourage some people to look for genetics, and at extreme, it could end up as one more gene scanned for before birth / early enough to have a selective abortion, or potentially to try and edit that gene.

arguing for 'made' will encourage some people to say it can be 'cured'.

having said that, i have met some homosexual men (i use the term intentionally, as some refuse to use the term 'gay' arguing that's a lifestyle not a sexual orientation) who seem to be motivated more through a hate / fear of women than an actual liking of men.

so maybe it's a bit of both and the answer is 'it depends'?

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Are you saying that homosexuals are born with innate ( inherent?) homosexual identity ?

Do you not think that sexual identity and behaviour/activity are quite different ?

If we consider sexual attraction as a significant factor in overall sexuality ,
do you think we are ALL born with our sexual attractions already formed ?

Or that all of our sexual attractions - of which gender/biological sex is potentially only one
component factor among many that could be formed , consciously or unconsciously , by all sorts
of changing factors which determine our particular likes and/or dislikes from our own personal experiences ?

Or do you think that its just homosexuals who’s sexually attractions are somehow already predetermined,
at birth ?

I mean identity as people are born with some inate aspects.

Some animals are homosexual. That isn't cultural. The same applies to humans.

The way that inate behaviour is expressed is of course influenced from culture.


Who we are is a blending of nature and nurture


Also how we feel isn't always how we act.
It is normal (edited to add: normal may not be the best term. Perhaps 'understandable' may be better. Difficult conversation there.) to be closeted if the surrounding culture is homophonic.


Again probably preaching to the choir for most

Feel a bit wierd as a nominally cis het male (have ace leanings) making sweeping statements

 

[Puddy_Tat]

(and for the avoidance of any confusion, cis gay male here - or at least so far exclusively gay, don't absolutely rule anything out but think alternatives are fairly unlikely now)

in answer to the original question then probably yes - if (and i'm approaching this from the male perspective) at least some men fancying other men some / most / all of the time wasn't a big deal at all, then there would probably be less of 'a gay identity' although any set of people with a minority interest, be that being gay or being in to morris dancing, will probably seek out others with shared interests.

any minority that's experiencing prejudice /discrimination is more likely to feel a need to get together for safe space / safety in numbers. compare and contrast with ethnic groups in the UK - there was probably more of 'an' ethnic minority community back when the NF were most active. Now, there are more visible 'ethnic minority' people in the mainstream (including a recent PM and other cabinet ministers) and there are more visible multiple communities. And some who will stir up shit for other minorities, (e.g. suella braverman and her comments about child grooming gangs)

There have (as long as I can remember) some gay men who have taken pride (with a small P) in being 'non scene' or 'straight acting' and have criticised those who are too camp / visible / politically active. I'm not sure I have the knowledge of psychology to say whether that's internalised homophobia, attempting to cosy up to the establishment, or a genuine belief that assimilation and being 'good gays' is the path to equalities.

although some gay men seem to validate themselves by finding minorities (within gay menor otherwise) to feel superior to (again compare and contrast with some ethnic minority tory politicians). i'm inclined to agree with 'jon fielding' in one of the 'tales of the city' books that 'all that bitchy talk about twinks is just a queen's way of being a male chauvinist pig'.

In terms of the right to join the army and all that sort of thing - personally I've no desire to join the army. or to adopt kids. and i don't think i'm ever likely to have the sort of relationship i want to formalise with the state. and i was probably a bit old even to think about having sex with 16 year olds by the time the age of consent was equalised. but i can't accept that LGBTQ+ people should be legally barred from doing any of these on the same terms as straight people - if they want to.