Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[The Fornicator]

I find these 'liberal bubble' posts quite amusing. As if this peoples vote stuff is all about butthurt liberal elites in their ivory towers getting cross about how unfair it is that democracy has happened.

I''ll be frank, I find it difficult to engage with people who won't stand by the democratic vote they exercised and the poll they participated in.

I know I sound like my grandfather but I never thought my generation would have to express the same principles,but here I go: As grandad would say, people died for this: Do you honestly not understand to not fuck with fully consensual national votes.

I'll engage to this extent; it now seems painfully clear the only way terribly nice middle class/professional people can justify their objection to a democratic process is to construct - out of whatever contrivances that float their way - moral high ground. They have to live with themselves - they have to feel morally valid, and that's exactly what your scatter gun list repeats here. AFTER THE FACT you have validated 'peoplesvote' from matters that were always present. It is politically and democratically delusional. Please, respect the result of the vote you participated in.

 

[Wookey]

Please, respect the result of the vote you participated in.

I did respect the result of the (advisory, flawed) referendum on the day after the vote, several years ago. I thought the people had thrown a big spanner in the spokes of the country, and did so for very good reasons that were not that much to do with the EU after all it seemed. but I accepted the result.

Since then, time has passed and evidence has emerged that undermines my trust in the process, not just on my own behalf as a voter who wants to win or lose fairly, but for everyone in this country who deserved informed consent, factual information, a straight vote that wasn't nobbled, clarity of purpose and end goal, much of which wasn't apparent at all the day after the vote, but has become very obvious since.

 

[MikeMcc]

An American comedian used to tell a joke around the time of the first gulf war when a coalition was being put together to throw out Saddam. There was nothing anyone could do to persuade, even just in tokenistic name - to get Germany engaged. His joke was the proposed death, destruction and madness across the region wasn't on a scale significant enough to interest your average German.

I feel a little like that about No Deal. In it's way, it's impressive - the self-confidence in the nation. It's probably madness as well, but you have to note the balls of it.

Not my impression having to back up vehicles to reinforce the gates in the barracks that was in to keep out the protestors. The general populace was very against the first Gulf War, though German troops worked hard in Afghanistan and were appreciated for their efforts. Different times and viewpoints.

 

[The Fornicator]

I did respect the result of the (advisory, flawed) referendum on the day after the vote, several years ago. I thought the people had thrown a big spanner in the spokes of the country, and did so for very good reasons that were not that much to do with the EU after all it seemed. but I accepted the result.

Since then, time has passed and evidence has emerged that undermines my trust in the process, not just on my own behalf as a voter who wants to win or lose fairly, but for everyone in this country who deserved informed consent, factual information, a straight vote that wasn't nobbled, clarity of purpose and end goal, much of which wasn't apparent at all the day after the vote, but has become very obvious since.

And I absolutely accept you totally believe this - nothing will divert you from your core values of integrity and moral decency. It is, though, delusional. And from the pov of democracy, it makes you very, very dangerous.

 

[Raheem]

I''ll be frank, I find it difficult to engage with people who won't stand by the democratic vote they exercised and the poll they participated in.

I know I sound like my grandfather but I never thought my generation would have to express the same principles,but here I go: As grandad would say, people died for this: Do you honestly not understand to not fuck with fully consensual national votes.

I'll engage to this extent; it now seems painfully clear the only way terribly nice middle class/professional people can justify their objection to a democratic process is to construct - out of whatever contrivances that float their way - moral high ground. They have to live with themselves - they have to feel morally valid, and that's exactly what your scatter gun list repeats here. AFTER THE FACT you have validated 'peoplesvote' from matters that were always present. It is politically and democratically delusional. Please, respect the result of the vote you participated in.

It's good to see that such respect for democratic principles is alive and well. I guess we can look forward to everyone respecting the outcome of the second referendum whatever it may be.

Have to say, though, I don't really get it. I can understand the view that politicians need to respect the referendum result. Cos it's the rules of the game, if you like that sort of thing. But what I respect and don't respect has always been up to me, and no-one ever asked me to sign something that said otherwise. There are plenty of reasons not to respect it, some better than others, but at the end of the day it was no more democratic or worthy of respect than the rest of the junk democracy we live under.

I'm not sure that's either here or there now, though. We're past the point where it is possible to get a result than more than a tiny minority of the population will think respects the result of the referendum. The only choices left are about which is the best way of not respecting the result of the referendum.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I''ll be frank, I find it difficult to engage with people who won't stand by the democratic vote they exercised and the poll they participated in.

I know I sound like my grandfather but I never thought my generation would have to express the same principles,but here I go: As grandad would say, people died for this: Do you honestly not understand to not fuck with fully consensual national votes.

I'll engage to this extent; it now seems painfully clear the only way terribly nice middle class/professional people can justify their objection to a democratic process is to construct - out of whatever contrivances that float their way - moral high ground. They have to live with themselves - they have to feel morally valid, and that's exactly what your scatter gun list repeats here. AFTER THE FACT you have validated 'peoplesvote' from matters that were always present. It is politically and democratically delusional. Please, respect the result of the vote you participated in.

Plenty of people were saying all of these things before the vote. Plenty of it on here, too, if you care to look back. So it's not just after the fact.

As for the idea that the democratic system of the UK is 'fully consensual', well not even close. And repeated attempts have been made since the vote to railroad a deal through in ways that were anything but democratic. The Commons had to fight to even get a vote on the deal, remember. Those attempts appear to be falling on their arses for various reasons. Good. One of the few good things to be happening at the moment is the reassertion of the Commons as the ultimate place of democratic accountability in the UK system. For long periods, it has been rendered impotent by governments with large majorities, from Thatcher through to Blair, which have exercised virtually unchecked power with disastrous results, one of the big weaknesses of the system, one of the big reasons why 'fully consensual' really doesn't apply. To fixate on this one single vote at the expense of all other processes presents, imo, a far greater danger to democratic accountability.

It's bullshit btw that it is just 'nice middle class/professional people' who are really angry about the shit brought about by brexit. Total bullshit. This stuff cuts right across class. If you don't see that, it's you that is living in a bubble.

 

[Wookey]

And I absolutely accept you totally believe this - nothing will divert you from your core values of integrity and moral decency. It is, though, delusional. And from the pov of democracy, it makes you very, very dangerous.

I do object to the undermining of my country's democracy by foreign powers, rich and unelected power-brokers, deliberate misinformation and a media complicit in the delusion that Brexit was ever our idea, and will deliver what we feel we need most.

I'm not sure why that makes me dangerous. Dangerous would be to accept what has gone on unquestioningly, focused only on the result rather than the anti-democratic tampering that we now know could at least in part have lead to the result.

We can't have a peaceful Ireland and also leave the EU, they're incompatible aims. We know this now clearly, all 500 pages of evidence in the exit agreement testify to that. Rather than shooting ourselves in the face with a deal that suits nobody, it's quite reasonable to demand clarification from the people. Who we respect, don't we?

 

[toblerone3]

It's good to see that such respect for democratic principles is alive and well. I guess we can look forward to everyone respecting the outcome of the second referendum whatever it may be.

Have to say, though, I don't really get it. I can understand the view that politicians need to respect the referendum result. Cos it's the rules of the game, if you like that sort of thing. But what I respect and don't respect has always been up to me, and no-one ever asked me to sign something that said otherwise. There are plenty of reasons not to respect it, some better than others, but at the end of the day it was no more democratic or worthy of respect than the rest of the junk democracy we live under.

I'm not sure that's either here or there now, though. We're past the point where it is possible to get a result than more than a tiny minority of the population will think respects the result of the referendum. The only choices left are about which is the best way of not respecting the result of the referendum.

Many of us didn't like the results of the 2015 and 2017 elections, but no-one is arguing about the results of those elections. They are still arguing about the 2016 referendum and for good reason. This is not going to go away. And its not just about a liberal elite. Fuck that shit.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Democracy

 

[Pickman's model]

Democracy

Is coming, to the uk

 

[Pickman's model]

And I absolutely accept you totally believe this - nothing will divert you from your core values of integrity and moral decency. It is, though, delusional. And from the pov of democracy, it makes you very, very dangerous.

Yeh from the pov of the corporate interests without an actual corporate vote but massive influence

 

[Smangus]

luv a bit of moral decency me.

 

[cupid_stunt]

BREAKING NEWS -

European Court of Justice Advocate General's opinion - UK can unilaterally revoke article 50.

One stage short of a full judgement at present, but 80% of judgements follow the Advocate General's opinion.

ETA:

The European Court of Justice's Advocate General said on Tuesday Britain has the right to withdraw its Brexit notice from the European Union unilaterally.



"Advocate General Campos Sanchez-Bordona proposes that the Court of Justice should declare that Article 50 ... allows the unilateral revocation of the notification of the intention to withdraw from the EU," the bloc's top court said in a statement.

While the Advocate General's opinions are not binding, the court tends to follow them in its final rulings.

Britain can end Brexit unilaterally says top EU court adviser | Devdiscourse News

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

We can't have a peaceful Ireland and also leave the EU, they're incompatible aims. We know this now clearly, all 500 pages of evidence in the exit agreement testify to that.

What did I miss?

 

[brogdale]

BREAKING NEWS -

European Court of Justice Advocate General's opinion - UK can unilaterally revoke article 50.

One stage short of a full judgement at present, but 80% of judgements follow the Advocate General's opinion.

ETA:


Britain can end Brexit unilaterally says top EU court adviser | Devdiscourse News

That EURefII ballot paper gets longer

 

[Pickman's model]

That EURefII ballot paper gets longer

Now the size of a typical 1990 yellow pages

 

[Pickman's model]

BREAKING NEWS -

European Court of Justice Advocate General's opinion - UK can unilaterally revoke article 50.

One stage short of a full judgement at present, but 80% of judgements follow the Advocate General's opinion.

ETA:


Britain can end Brexit unilaterally says top EU court adviser | Devdiscourse News

As I anticipated

 

[Kaka Tim]

If the ruling is upheld then that's it - crashing out with no deal is never going to be allowed to happen.

 

[Pickman's model]

If the ruling is upheld then that's it - no deal is never going to happen.

au contraire: meet the new deal, same as the auld deal

 

[SpookyFrank]

Please, respect the result of the vote you participated in.

I can respect the people who voted without respecting the obviously farcical referendum itself.

I also respect the people who didn't get a vote, and who are therefore excluded from every subsequent tirade about the 'will of the people'. A majority of the people on my street won't have had a vote. So no, I don't respect that situation because it's fucking disrespectful.

 

[Wookey]

If the ruling is upheld then that's it - crashing out with no deal is never going to be allowed to happen.

It's not a ruling yet, but a hugely persuasive opinion followed 75% of the time.

 

[Wookey]

I can respect the people who voted without respecting the obviously farcical referendum itself.

...although I am finding my patience wearing very thin as some Leave voters decry the process and demand No Deal exit, despite all evidence showing this to be a colossal hari kari on a national scale.

Many have changed their minds, which must be hard to do and painful. I respect that evolution hugely. But I'm starting to see Intransigent Leave voters as sabateurs to be honest, their denial is now wilful and quite unforgiveable omo.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Democracy

Super glue.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

what is a sabateur in this context? campaigning for the defeat of your own bourgeois? if so im all for that.

but remain will win even if remainers lose.

 

[butchersapron]

...although I am finding my patience wearing very thin as some Leave voters decry the process and demand No Deal exit, despite all evidence showing this to be a colossal hari kari on a national scale.

Many have changed their minds, which must be hard to do and painful. I respect that evolution hugely. But I'm starting to see Intransigent Leave voters as sabateurs to be honest, their denial is now wilful and quite unforgiveable omo.

Crush them Wookey

 

[Yossarian]

I thought one of the main factors in the Leave vote was high turnout among people who don't usually vote - hard to imagine a better way to get them to turn out and vote Leave again than holding a second referendum that would be portrayed as "snooty London elites" trying to overturn the votes of people they see as toothless morons too unsophisticated to vote properly.

 

[andysays]

...although I am finding my patience wearing very thin as some Leave voters decry the process and demand No Deal exit, despite all evidence showing this to be a colossal hari kari on a national scale.

Many have changed their minds, which must be hard to do and painful. I respect that evolution hugely. But I'm starting to see Intransigent Leave voters as sabateurs to be honest, their denial is now wilful and quite unforgiveable omo.

Your posts this morning are gibberish, frankly

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Your posts this morning are gibberish, frankly

His patience is wearing thin.

 

[DotCommunist]

Crush them Wookey

enemies of the people

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I’m sensing a lot of disrespect going on here.