Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Is America burning? (Black Lives Matter protests, civil unrest and riots 2020)

existentialist said:
Good of you to take on the responsibility of deciding who is "legitimate" and who isn't. Fine work. And don't you worry one bit that you're doing all the heavy lifting for the types who would happily categorise ANYONE who protested as non-legitimate.

Where do you stand on, for example, the teargassing of a bunch of women who went onto the streets to "protest" (sorry, that word again, hush mah mouth) at the brutality of the police response? Were they "legitimate"? Or "vandalising"? And, if the fucking police can't tell the difference, how the hell are we supposed to believe that YOU can?
Click to expand...
I oppose the tear gassing you describe. I disagree in general with their point of view but they have every right to express it. I appreciate the difficult position the cops are in. They have been engaged in street battles nearly every night for about 50 nights now. The anarchists (or what ever you want to call them) mix in with peaceful protesters. At the same time the cops have to respond to ordinary crime throughout the city. I know someone persomnally wh had to call the cops because he was being threatened in a small park near me. BTW, before all this began the Portland Police Bureau (PPB) was about 100 cops understaffed. Our idiotic city government (wimps) just cut the police budget. Madness in my view.
existentialist said:
Good of you to take on the responsibility of deciding who is "legitimate" and who isn't. Fine work. And don't you worry one bit that you're doing all the heavy lifting for the types who would happily categorise ANYONE who protested as non-legitimate.

Where do you stand on, for example, the teargassing of a bunch of women who went onto the streets to "protest" (sorry, that word again, hush mah mouth) at the brutality of the police response? Were they "legitimate"? Or "vandalising"? And, if the fucking police can't tell the difference, how the hell are we supposed to believe that YOU can?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I'm getting a bit confused engaging several people in discussion at once. I oppose the tear gassing you describe.
 
TomUS said:
I assume you are referring to the cops. I live here. I'm very familiar with downtown. I used to work there. And I've also met some of the cops at neighborhood assn meetings. The cops didn't trash the place. IMO they were prevented from defending the downtown core by wimpy wildly liberal politicians. I hold them responsible.
Click to expand...

If that's anything like our neighborhood association, that explains a lot. Ours goes around driving through alleys and looking into back yards for things to turn people in for. If you have a window that has some chipping paint or an expired car tag, you can be sure you'll get your nastygram from the city.
 
existentialist said:
So you're saying that you can conceive of no situation, anywhere, where rebellion is legitimate or desirable?

What, not even in your own country after 1765? You think that Americans should still be singing God Save The Queen?
Click to expand...
I'm distinguishing between types and degrees of rebellion. I'm not going to get into the American revolution. I simply don't think smashing up Portland's downtown is legitimate protest in this case. This isn't he Bolshevik revolution but the violent elements apparently would like it to be something similar. Given the distasterous long term results of that episode, I would not.
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
If that's anything like our neighborhood association, that explains a lot. Ours goes around driving through alleys and looking into back yards for things to turn people in for. If you have a window that has some chipping paint or an expired car tag, you can be sure you'll get your nastygram from the city.
Click to expand...
Ours isn't anything like that. They don't do much of anything.
 
TomUS said:
I'm distinguishing between types and degrees of rebellion. I'm not going to get into the American revolution. I simply don't think smashing up Portland's downtown is legitimate protest in this case. This isn't he Bolshevik revolution but the violent elements apparently would like it to be something similar. Given the distasterous long term results of that episode, I would not.
Click to expand...
I think you are trying to look at a complex situation rather simplistically, and you're all over the place with your arguments. You're making a lot of sweeping statements which you seem unable to support with any kind of rationale.

I brought the American Revolution into it as a reductio ad absurdum to highlight that inconsistency, although you've done it yourself with your sweeping statements about protesters, then retrenching, tiny step by tiny step, when you're called out on them.

The fact is that crowd behaviour isn't some simple thing where you can easily split protesters into "good" and "bad". The object of the exercise HAS to be not to piss so many people off that you end up with protests in the first place, not some kind of after-the-fact (and doomed) attempt to sieve out those whose behaviour you approve of from those you don't. And the reason it has to be like that is because - as you are providing an excellent demonstration of - the argument falls to pieces when you do.

Right now, the issue shouldn't be "who are the bad protesters?", but "what do we have to do to alleviate the desire to protest in the first place?". And it seems to me that not treating a significant proportion of your population like shit, and then treating even more like shit when they do protest, would be a pretty good start. The reason you're struggling to find a coherent position on this is because there simply isn't one to take, and the only thing you are doing with the line you are taking is to divert the argument away from the fact that the authorities' behaviour, both before and after protests began, has been utterly egregious.
 
existentialist said:
I think you are trying to look at a complex situation rather simplistically, and you're all over the place with your arguments. You're making a lot of sweeping statements which you seem unable to support with any kind of rationale.

I brought the American Revolution into it as a reductio ad absurdum to highlight that inconsistency, although you've done it yourself with your sweeping statements about protesters, then retrenching, tiny step by tiny step, when you're called out on them.

The fact is that crowd behaviour isn't some simple thing where you can easily split protesters into "good" and "bad". The object of the exercise HAS to be not to piss so many people off that you end up with protests in the first place, not some kind of after-the-fact (and doomed) attempt to sieve out those whose behaviour you approve of from those you don't. And the reason it has to be like that is because - as you are providing an excellent demonstration of - the argument falls to pieces when you do.

Right now, the issue shouldn't be "who are the bad protesters?", but "what do we have to do to alleviate the desire to protest in the first place?". And it seems to me that not treating a significant proportion of your population like shit, and then treating even more like shit when they do protest, would be a pretty good start. The reason you're struggling to find a coherent position on this is because there simply isn't one to take, and the only thing you are doing with the line you are taking is to divert the argument away from the fact that the authorities' behaviour, both before and after protests began, has been utterly egregious.
Click to expand...
Good points, but since we can't undo the injustices of the past, we have to deal with the present. That's what I'm focused on. That's all that can be focused on at this point. Of course, the root causes of any unrest should be examined and the necessary reforms made. Non stop street battles get in the way of these reforms. The constant street battles and stretching of police resources greatly harm the economy and besides causing unemployment, reduce funds the city and state could be using to promote police reform.
 
TomUS said:
Good points, but since we can't undo the injustices of the past, we have to deal with the present. That's what I'm focused on. That's all that can be focused on at this point. Of course, the root causes of any unrest should be examined and the necessary reforms made. Non stop street battles get in the way of these reforms. The constant street battles and stretching of police resources greatly harm the economy and besides causing unemployment, reduce funds the city and state could be using to promote police reform.
Click to expand...
there are not and never will be non-stop street battles.

the reforms when offered will be too little far too late.

wait six months and then we'll see how much police reform has occurred. 'not a lot' no doubt as the late paul daniels would say.
 
TomUS said:
I'm afraid you are seeing it as all one thing. I think it's more complex. The whole protest movement was in response to a police killing in Minneapolis, and then to police brutality in general against blacks. The vast majority protested peacefully. Those who attacked (and attempted to set fire to) the Justice center (police HQ and county jail) were not simply expressing an opinion or making demands. They attacked a building where people work and live and a building necessary to the functioning of the city. Naturally, the cops tried and continue to try to defend it. The attackers (anarchists, criminals, violent elements, whatever label is appropriate), then spread their destruction to a large portion of downtown.....attackg and looting businesses small and large. So, in my view the "rising" has majority legitimate and minority illegitimate components. Any and all forms of rebellion are not legitimate or desirable in my view.
Click to expand...
So your opinion is that a small number of people managed to graffiti and damage the entire downtown area, comprising state buildings and an entire shopping mall, all in the face of the majority of protesters, who didn’t approve of such actions? And the police, who were just trying to defend these buildings, were unable to do so? In spite of it being a minority protest action?

Where did you form this opinion from? Is it based on what you are being told by the authorities happened, by any chance?
 
TomUS said:
I'm afraid you are seeing it as all one thing. I think it's more complex. The whole protest movement was in response to a police killing in Minneapolis, and then to police brutality in general against blacks. The vast majority protested peacefully. Those who attacked (and attempted to set fire to) the Justice center (police HQ and county jail) were not simply expressing an opinion or making demands. They attacked a building where people work and live and a building necessary to the functioning of the city. Naturally, the cops tried and continue to try to defend it. The attackers (anarchists, criminals, violent elements, whatever label is appropriate), then spread their destruction to a large portion of downtown.....attackg and looting businesses small and large. So, in my view the "rising" has majority legitimate and minority illegitimate components. Any and all forms of rebellion are not legitimate or desirable in my view.
Click to expand...

tbh police stations and prisons need burning.
 
It’s truism amongst those who actually academically research riots and crowd behaviour that police cause riots, not civilians. Whether or not a riot occurs is totally predictable based on the actions of the police. If they go heavy handed against individuals who are trying to make a peaceful point, they end up delegitimising their own authority and cohere the disparate parts of the crowd into a single group identity, which then reacts accordingly
 
Last edited:
kabbes said:
So your opinion is that a small number of people managed to graffiti and damage the entire downtown area, comprising state buildings and an entire shopping mall, all in the face of the majority of protesters, who didn’t approve of such actions? And the police, who were just trying to defend these buildings, were unable to do so? In spite of it being a minority protest action?

Where did you form this opinion from? Is it based on what you are being told by the authorities happened, by any chance?
Click to expand...
It's based on my observations. I live close to downtown and have been there often. The police chief who was in power when the worst violence happened resigned. I'm not sure if it was incompetent policing or incompetent civillian leadership. I think it was mainly the latter.
 
Trump is out of control, China style.

Fifteen mayors sign letter objecting to federal agents in Portland

Fifteen mayors signed on to a letter asking the Trump administration to withdraw federal law enforcement officers from Portland, Oregon, and abandon plans to send federal agents to other Democratic-controlled cities.

The letter, which was dated Monday, was signed by the mayors of Portland, Seattle, Atlanta, Chicago, Washington, DC, Boston, Philadelphia, Denver, Los Angeles, San Jose, Oakland, Tucson, Sacramento, Phoenix and Kansas City, Missiouri.
Click to expand...
In the letter, the mayors described Trump’s efforts to send federal agents to US ctities without the approval of local leaders as an “abuse of power.”

“These are tactics we expect from authoritarian regimes -- not our democracy,” the mayors wrote.

“Unilaterally deploying these paramilitary-type forces into our cities is wholly inconsistent with our system of democracy and our most basic values.”

Trump will deliver remarks this afternoon on “Combatting Violent Crime in American Cities,” which will likely touch on his plans to send federal agents to other cities beyond Portland.
Click to expand...

www.theguardian.com

Trump announces 'surge of federal law enforcement' in US cities – as it happened

President plans to send hundreds of federal agents into Chicago ‘immediately’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
US police can't seem to tell the difference between a riot and a protest.
Run away from a riot get their police station burnt down and go in heavy handed against protestors doing their best to make sure a riot kicks off.:facepalm:

Trump's apprantly sent in the US version of the prison services national tornado squad.:confused:.
Who really aren't trained or equipped for what they are being asked to do.
 
likesfish said:
Trump's apprantly sent in the US version of the prison services national tornado squad.:confused:.
Who really aren't trained or equipped for what they are being asked to do.
Click to expand...

My suspicion is that this is deliberate. There's no way that nobody in the US federal government has a clue about how to de-escalate civil unrest. So they send in untrained goons. If they succeed in intimidating the locals, that's a win. If the feds get their shit pushed in by the locals, then that's also a win because it's an excuse to go in even harder.
 
likesfish said:
US police can't seem to tell the difference between a riot and a protest.
Run away from a riot get their police station burnt down and go in heavy handed against protestors doing their best to make sure a riot kicks off.:facepalm:

Trump's apprantly sent in the US version of the prison services national tornado squad.:confused:.
Who really aren't trained or equipped for what they are being asked to do.
Click to expand...
I think they can tell the difference between a riot and a protest. It's why they are trying so hard to ensure that protests become riots...because then the orange twat can play the Laura Norder card and get his base all excited and keen.
 
red & green said:
Those feds are ICE EVO who have been deputised and you know what they do
Click to expand...
If you read the article I linked to above they're even from the US coastguard, not personnel you'd expext to be trained in crowd control. In fact they are all personnel that the White house is empowered to to redeploy.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

elbows
Bangladesh leader flees country after protests and many deaths
Replies
1
Views
359
JimW
JimW
Bingoman
Protests in Georgia 14th may 2024
Replies
22
Views
969
The39thStep
The39thStep
AmateurAgitator
Riots and Protests in Greece
Replies
1
Views
367
CNT36
C
Dimitris
Greece in turmoil and pain - 8 days of rage, protests and riots
Replies
2
Views
464
Dimitris
Dimitris
krtek a houby
Book bannings, burnings, ignorance etc
Replies
8
Views
487
Fozzie Bear
Fozzie Bear
Back
Top Bottom