Is America burning? (Black Lives Matter protests, civil unrest and riots 2020)

[Chilli.s]

Never underestimate the power of herd mentality

 

[kabbes]

Not aware of the research, but how else do we explain the chanting of 'lock her up', 'stop the steal' and all the rest that Trump started and have been parroted so thoroughly by his supporters? Plus all the encouragement of violence that we're seeing from his far right support.

Surely the supporters can co-construct all that as part of their identities and behaviours without being seen as passive victims.

The moment you see it as some kind of “insanity virus” that is passing from victim to victim, you’ve misunderstood what’s really happening and thus totally missed your chance to do anything about future violence and other forces of future reaction

 

[two sheds]

What's really happening? (Sorry: not trying to be contrary, am interested to know).

 

[kabbes]

Never underestimate the power of herd mentality

What do you understand by “herd mentality”?

Can you describe your own experiences of being subject to “herd mentality”? Are you part of “herd mentality” today?

 

[kabbes]

What's really happening? (Sorry: not trying to be contrary, am interested to know).

There are, of course, many variants of answer to this. But lot of what relates to the kind of thing we’re talking about here broadly derives from the work on Social Identity Theory originally created by Tajfel and Turner. This is how people come to feel part of a group, othering those not in the group and behaving rationally from the perspective of that group even if those outside it view this as irrational.

Social identity theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are structural influences too, however. Post-structuralists would point out the processes by which institutions of power create the environment by which a sense of subjectivity that correspond to social norms is constructed by the individual as part of their formation of self. If you understand that you are judged against those social norms, you will create in yourself the sense that those norms are natural and feel uncomfortable if not following them.

The idea that a leader who has this transcendent (i.e. externally understood) pathology that we are calling “narcissism” can turn up and change a lot of people into something they otherwise are not just through some kind of viral irrationalism of crowds is not born out by either research or even any kind of theory as to how it might happen. It’s like going back to the days of Le Bon from the 1890s who said that people just lose themselves.

 

[Chilli.s]

What do you understand by “herd mentality”?

Can you describe your own experiences of being subject to “herd mentality”? Are you part of “herd mentality” today?

That's a lot of questions.

I've googled it for you:

Herd mentality, mob mentality and pack mentality, also lesser known as gang mentality, describes how people can be influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors on a largely emotional, rather than rational, basis.

I last saw it in a school setting, some kid said they saw a "scary clown" on the way to school, gave a description of Pennywise, this was about the time of the 2017 film featuring that clown. Lunchtime playground had multiple reports of clowns in the street outside. Cue loads of crying, screaming and running about (in a way very similar to... a herd of startled sheep).

 

[kabbes]

That's a lot of questions.

I've googled it for you:

Herd mentality, mob mentality and pack mentality, also lesser known as gang mentality, describes how people can be influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors on a largely emotional, rather than rational, basis.

You know that a google search that finds a definition of a term is not the same as peer-reviewed research, right?

I would take issue with a number of things from that definition, starting with the dualism between emotion and rationality. Humans use emotion in order to determine what is rational. They aren’t separate processes.

I last saw it in a school setting, some kid said they saw a "scary clown" on the way to school, gave a description of Pennywise, this was about the time of the 2017 film featuring that clown. Lunchtime playground had multiple reports of clowns in the street outside. Cue loads of crying, screaming and running about (in a way very similar to... a herd of startled sheep).

So no personal experience of having herd mentality yourself, then? No time that you personally were just “irrational”, out of control, doing things for no reason other than the fact that everybody else is doing it? It’s just other people that do that?

 

[Chilli.s]

So no personal experience of having herd mentality yourself, then? No time that you were just “irrational”, out of control, doing things for no reason other than the fact that everybody else is doing it? It’s just other people that do that?

Oh yes, doesn't everybody at some time have an example. Personally I rarely submit my emotions for peer-review nowadays.

How about you?

 

[kabbes]

Oh yes, doesn't everybody at some time have an example. Personally I rarely submit my emotions for peer-review nowadays.

How about you?

What’s your example?

It doesn’t need to even be your example. You don’t need everybody to submit their emotions for peer review. You just need a researcher into crowd or group behaviour to have found an example of this “herd mentality” that stands up to scrutiny. What happened, what were the people involved feeling, how are these things explained? There has been plenty of research into riots, for example. I’m not aware of any of it finding this curious transcendent “herd mentality”. The key thing for any example is for it to find people describing themselves as having herd mentality in a way that fits with the definition, that doesn’t come down to other (well-understood) group behavioural processes.

No, I don’t have my own example of experiencing herd mentality. Although I have behaved emotionally in crowds, I don’t have personal experience of not being in any control of my actions, not making decisions, doing things just because other people are doing them, like a herd animal without any agency.

It’s an easy way to dismiss other people’s behaviour, though. That way, those other people don’t have to be engaged with. We don’t have to worry about their problems, their motivations. We don’t have to worry about the social conditions that was the precursor to their behaviour. We don’t have to worry about changing anything. They’re just irrational animals, infected with the crowd insanity virus.

 

[hitmouse]

Might as well go here as anywhere else - Dan Baker, first new antifascist prisoner of the Biden era, just got a three and a half year sentence because after January 6th, he made internet posts encouraging resistance to any similar shit that might happen in his area on inauguration day:

Man found guilty in ‘Call to Arms’ at Florida Capitol sentenced to 3.5 years in prison

Daniel Baker has been sentenced to 44 months in prison and three years of supervised release.

www.wctv.tv

Daniel Baker sentenced to federal prison in Florida Capitol threat case

Daniel Baker, an Army veteran turned overseas militia member, had posted online calls to rise up to confront\u00a0\

eu.tallahassee.com

 

[Dogsauce]

I bet people who actively took part in insurrection don’t get three years for it, that sentence looks like punative bollocks.

 

[Ax^]

Jake Angeli will more than likely get less jail time that this fella

 

[hitmouse]

I bet people who actively took part in insurrection don’t get three years for it, that sentence looks like punative bollocks.

Yeah, new article up compares some of the sentencing:

A Florida Anarchist Will Spend Years in Prison for Online Posts Prompted by Jan. 6 Riot

Daniel Baker’s calls for armed defense against possible far-right attacks led to a much harsher sentence than that facing most January 6 insurrectionists.

theintercept.com

During his sentencing hearing on Tuesday, Baker’s attorney highlighted the case of a Georgia man who drove to Washington, D.C., with guns and ammunition and sent private texts threatening to shoot Rep. Nancy Pelosi in the head. The Trump acolyte had missed the storming of the Capitol by one day due to car trouble. Like Baker, he was charged with the interstate communication of threats. Unlike Baker, he had a history of hideous, racist online speech, and direct threats. And unlike Baker, he could leave prison soon: He will be sentenced in December and faces between six months to two years in prison; his eight months of pretrial detention will count as time served. Taking into account time served, meanwhile, Baker will spend another 34 months — almost three years — in prison.

“Dan’s case speaks volumes about how the state represses the left much differently than it treats the far right,” Brad Thomson, civil rights attorney at the People’s Law Office, who did not represent Baker, told me. “Here, Dan was sentenced to three and a half years for online posts opposing another January 6 incident. But for actual participants from January 6, we’re seeing charges and sentences far below that.” Thomson added that “every case is unique, but the overall message people will get from this is that online speech calling for militant antifascist action will send you to prison for much longer than actually taking militant action with fascists.”

 

[Artaxerxes]

Grim.

Men shot by Rittenhouse can't be called 'victims,' but 'rioters,' 'looters' OK, judge rules

The judge said using the word "victim" to describe the men shot by Rittenhouse, including two who died, would be loaded with prejudice.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Ax^]

Gonna walk basically,

bloody obscene but its america

 

[two sheds]

You'd imagine it would be grounds for appeal. Depends on which state they're in you'd imagine as to whether appeal judges would be just as biased.

 

[Ax^]

so far the judge has rule you cannot call him by his surname weird so that he does not appear to be an adult even if he is being tried as one

second cannot bring up any of his links to alt right group

and he demonising and degrading the characters of the people the little prick shoot to death


American court system is a bit of a joke

 

[Nylock]

That's what happens when you elect your judges and their only qualification requirement is that they have enough money to run for office...

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

That's what happens when you elect your judges and their only qualification requirement is that they have enough money to run for office...

The same thing goes for elected law enforcement like county sheriffs.

 

[Ax^]

 

[hitmouse]

Certainly makes a bit of a contrast to the treatment Michael Reinoehl got.

 

[Chilli.s]

Funny old legal system, a bit of a stretch to actually call it law though. I have a hunch that tories this side of the pond look on with a big dollop of envy fantasising about how it could increase their hold on power and purse strings to have more control of courts

 

[hitmouse]

Useful, non-sensationalist thread from a defence lawyer here:

 

[hitmouse]

Dunno what thread to put this in, but suppose it can go here:

Missouri Landlord 'Viciously Stabbed' Tenant More Than 30 Times in Front of Fiancée Over Complaint About Lack of Heat: Cops

Missouri landlord Gordon T. McBeth was arrested after police say he stabbed a new tenant more than 30 times because the man complained about the heat in the residence not working.

lawandcrime.com

A Missouri landlord was arrested after allegedly stabbing a new tenant more than 30 times in front of the victim’s fiancée because the man complained about the heat in the residence not working.


Gordon T. McBeth, 44, was taken into custody on Friday and charged with second-degree murder and armed criminal action in the death of Darryl “Brent” Gilland, the Kansas City Star reported.


According to the report, officers with the Kansas City Police Department at approximately 3:30 p.m. on Friday responded to a 911 call about a stabbing at the home Gilland and his fiancée recently began renting in the 6200 block of North Topping Avenue. When first responders arrived on the scene, they reportedly found McBeth being held at gunpoint by another person, later identified as a neighbor. Gilland was reportedly lying face down in a pool of blood after suffering what appeared to be multiple stab wounds to his chest, back, arms, and legs. Emergency Medical Services paramedics declared Gilland dead at the scene.


Court documents obtained by Kansas City FOX affiliate WDAF-TV state that McBeth arrived at the home after Gilland and his fiancée texted him about the heat not working. Gilland’s fiancée — later identified as Samantha Pohlman — reportedly told investigators that the messages were respectful.


“[Gilland] just messaged him like, ‘Hey, can we please just do something about the heating situation,” Pohlman told Kansas City CBS affiliate KCTV. “At first, the guy was perfectly nice about it. He was like, ‘yeah I’ll come over and we’ll do that’ and then just out of nowhere he completely flipped and acted like we were asking too much and being a complete burden.”


Witnesses reportedly told investigators that McBeth was driving erratically before pulling into the couple’s driveway and was then immediately aggressive towards the two. Pohlman reportedly said he began throwing things at her as soon as he got out of his car. When Gilland attempted to intervene, McBeth reportedly pulled out a “large hunting-style knife,” which he pointed at Gilland while threatening to kill him. Just moments later, he allegedly began stabbing Gilland repeatedly. Pohlman reportedly told police that she ran screaming to a neighbor’s home...

Gilland’s family set up a GoFundMe page for his funeral expenses. A message on the GoFundMe said that Gilland and his fiancée had only been living in the residence for a week:

On Friday, October 22, 2021, several lives were impacted by the passing of Darryl “Brent” Gilland. Midday, Brent requested his landlord assist with the heat being turned on in his newly rented house – he and his fiancé had only lived in the home less than a week. Upon arrival to the property, their was some sort of discussion that caused the landlord to snap and pull out a knife threatening both Brent and his fiancé. Samantha immediately ran to the neighbors house next door for help but by the time they returned Brent had lost his life due to multiple stab wounds. The neighbors were able to hold his killer at gun point until the cops arrived.
As you can imagine, we are all extremely devastated and in shock over the tragic loss of our loved one.

The campaign has raised more than $6,000 as of Tuesday afternoon. Gilland will be buried in Indiana next to his grandparents, with whom he had a close relationship.

McBeth is currently being held on $1 million bond. He reportedly entered a plea of not guilty during a court proceeding Monday morning. He is scheduled to appear in court again on Nov. 2 for a bond reduction hearing.

In August, a Las Vegas landlord was arrested after police said he murdered two of his tenants to avoid the lengthy eviction process. Arnoldo Lozano Sanchez was charged with two counts of murder and one count of attempted murder.

 

[petee]

Useful, non-sensationalist thread from a defence lawyer here:

dude knows me

 

[hitmouse]

Might as well go here as anywhere else - Dan Baker, first new antifascist prisoner of the Biden era, just got a three and a half year sentence because after January 6th, he made internet posts encouraging resistance to any similar shit that might happen in his area on inauguration day:

Man found guilty in ‘Call to Arms’ at Florida Capitol sentenced to 3.5 years in prison

Daniel Baker has been sentenced to 44 months in prison and three years of supervised release.

www.wctv.tv

Daniel Baker sentenced to federal prison in Florida Capitol threat case

Daniel Baker, an Army veteran turned overseas militia member, had posted online calls to rise up to confront\u00a0\

eu.tallahassee.com

Comparing the Dan Baker case with this guy who just got probation is quite the contrast:

Trump-loving QAnon follower gets probation for shooting up federal courthouse in Portland

A QAnon follower and Donald Trump supporter has been sentenced to five years of probation for repeatedly firing a gun into the facade of the federal courthouse in downtown Portland in January. Cody Melby, 40, fired a 9mm handgun at the courthouse multiple times because he "wanted to get in front...

www.rawstory.com

A QAnon follower and Donald Trump supporter has been sentenced to five years of probation for repeatedly firing a gun into the facade of the federal courthouse in downtown Portland in January.

Cody Melby, 40, fired a 9mm handgun at the courthouse multiple times because he "wanted to get in front of the court for political and patriotic reasons," according to his attorney, public defender Bryan Francesconi.

Melby also reportedly told Immergut he wanted to be released from jail so that he could transmit sensitive information to Congress. When the judge asked how he planned to contact Congress, Melby replied that he would do so by email.

"I will ask you to have a discussion with probation before you start sending emails to folks, because I'm concerned that you could find yourself going down a path that would not be helpful to you," Judge Immergut responded. "So to the extent that there is anything that's perceived as threatening, for example—that would not be good for you."

Melby pleaded guilty to a felony charge of possession of a firearm in a federal facility, which normally carries a prison sentence. But federal prosecutors and Melby's defense attorney agreed on probation due to his lack of criminal history and "the totality of the facts and circumstances of this case," Willamette Weekly reports.

 

[Idris2002]

Grim.

Men shot by Rittenhouse can't be called 'victims,' but 'rioters,' 'looters' OK, judge rules

The judge said using the word "victim" to describe the men shot by Rittenhouse, including two who died, would be loaded with prejudice.

www.nbcnews.com

Looks like he's going to walk. And while I do think he's a nasty piece of work, I also think his defence is sound.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

And the razzie for worst cry impression goes to...



White boy tears will probably work a treat on the jury

 

[IC3D]

The protester who said he pulled a gun first has fucked this. Self defense now.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Judge seems like a total cunt