International repression of Palestine solidarity

[krtek a houby]

Jewish people are accused of anti-semitism quite often.

Zionists and hasbara will target Jewish critics of the apartheid state.

 

[ID47]

Only met TG once about 15 years ago at a community centre in Brighton that was showing a film on Arab Punks or something like that (it was a long time ago). Seemed a nice calm and very non racist guy and he was with his disabled son who he probably still cares for. Hopefully the bastards will take into account the care factor before locking him up.

Found the film!

 

[mojo pixy]

Jewish people are accused of anti-semitism quite often.

Zionists and hasbara will target Jewish critics of the apartheid state.

I've never been accused of anti semitism for criticising Israel (which I've done countless times in many different contexts) so it clearly isn't an inevitable consequence of doing so. I'm not exactly a political genius so if I can work out how to manage that I don't see why others can't.

I suspect a lot of people feel so strongly they just don't care if they sound antisemitic. It's a growing trend, people expressing views in dodgy ways then doubling down when they're called out on that.

 

[Gramsci]

I've never been accused of anti semitism for criticising Israel (which I've done countless times in many different contexts) so it clearly isn't an inevitable consequence of doing so. I'm not exactly a political genius so if I can work out how to manage that I don't see why others can't.

I suspect a lot of people feel so strongly they just don't care if they sound antisemitic. It's a growing trend, people expressing views in dodgy ways then doubling down when they're called out on that.

My query was,

1. Is Greenstein Jewish? As when I looked him up appears he is

2. Can a Jewish person make anti Semitic comments?

As LDC said he did make anti Semitic comments.

Whether he is a particularly nice person or not is beside the point. LDC did say " regularly expressing anti Semitic views" of Greenstein.

I mean I don't know him personally so just looked him up on Wikipedia. Which is pretty good but sometimes gets things wrong. So I could have got my facts wrong here.

As I posted this is genuine question. As given this person has been posted about I was trying to google myself to find out about them

 

[Gramsci]

My personal experience of Jewish people who are not Zionists and do not support Israel is that they get a lot of stick

I've seen myself a Jews calling other Jews self hating Jews.

A lot of the stuff I've read about Israel/ Palestine has been written by Israeli Jews. Who no longer live there

Ilan Pappe for example career in academia ended in Israel. Due to his views on Zionism, He still can visit but jobs no.

So in this more tolerant country ( at the moment anyway) works here.

Israel loss our gain imo

And he is not the only one.

 

[Gramsci]

And I notice PTK sensible question was not answered

 

[hitmouse]

My query was,

1. Is Greenstein Jewish? As when I looked him up appears he is

Probably, or at least the answer depends on how you define a Jew, but probably yes.

2. Can a Jewish person make anti Semitic comments?

Yes, absolutely, just like women can make misogynist comments, immigrants can make anti-immigrant comments and so on. I've not really crossed paths with TG personally but remember him having a pretty bad rep. If you search for "Greenstein" you can find a fair bit of past discussion of him on here.

 

[Gramsci]

Probably, or at least the answer depends on how you define a Jew, but probably yes.

Yes, absolutely, just like women can make misogynist comments, immigrants can make anti-immigrant comments and so on. I've not really crossed paths with TG personally but remember him having a pretty bad rep. If you search for "Greenstein" you can find a fair bit of past discussion of him on here.

I find this problematic on several grounds.

1 Should I as a non Jew define who is a Jew?

2. As a non Jew can I really say a Jew is anti Semitic?

Plenty of people have a bad rap for being bullies or generally not nice people. That is a different issue,

 

[Gramsci]

Probably, or at least the answer depends on how you define a Jew, but probably yes.

Yes, absolutely, just like women can make misogynist comments, immigrants can make anti-immigrant comments and so on. I've not really crossed paths with TG personally but remember him having a pretty bad rep. If you search for "Greenstein" you can find a fair bit of past discussion of him on here.

OK how do you define who is a Jew?

Personally I don't. If someone tells me they are a Jew I just accept that

 

[hitmouse]

I find this problematic on several grounds.

1 Should I as a non Jew define who is a Jew?

2. As a non Jew can I really say a Jew is anti Semitic?

Plenty of people have a bad rap for being bullies or generally not nice people. That is a different issue,

I'm happy to accept self-identification as being the most sensible method too, the issue is that I'm not an expert on Greenstein and so don't know if that's what he does. But from a quick search it looks like he probably does, so sure, I think he counts as a Jew.

2. Yeah, it's uncomfortable to say that (and I have definitely got absolutely furious at gentiles who seem to be keen on setting themselves up as antisemitefinder general in the past), but ultimately, yeah I think you have to. You can't always just defer to members of X group to give the answer on certain subjects, not least because that group is always going to disagree with each other, so you have to make your own mind up about which accusations are and aren't reasonable.

 

[PTK]

I think it is possible for me, a White person, to assert that a Black comdian made racist jokes.
I have seen no evidence that Tony Greenstein has made anti-Jewish remarks.
I have to declare an interest: Tony Greenstein once gave me some useful advice about housing matters online.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm happy to accept self-identification as being the most sensible method too, the issue is that I'm not an expert on Greenstein and so don't know if that's what he does. But from a quick search it looks like he probably does, so sure, I think he counts as a Jew.

2. Yeah, it's uncomfortable to say that (and I have definitely got absolutely furious at gentiles who seem to be keen on setting themselves up as antisemitefinder general in the past), but ultimately, yeah I think you have to. You can't always just defer to members of X group to give the answer on certain subjects, not least because that group is always going to disagree with each other, so you have to make your own mind up about which accusations are and aren't reasonable.

Fair enough.

On 2 that is why I get annoyed when people like say Board of Deputies of British Jews and Chief Rabbi make statements on Israel as though what they say is what all Jews think.

That however does not mean I think what they say as Jews is anti Semitic.

Jewish people have a wide range of opinions on Israel.

Personally I don't agree with a most of what Chief Rabbi or BDBJ say but would not say they are being anti semitic for saying it.

So why is Greenstein?

 

[PTK]

More importantly, is it right that Tony Greenstein should be charged with supporting terrorism?

 

[hitmouse]

I mean, in general I'm against the terror laws and how they're applied so I'm gonna say no, I haven't seen the actual comments that the charges are related to so hard for me to comment on the specifics without knowing them.

 

[mojo pixy]

I've changed my mind, it's not up to me to explain this. I'm done.

Sorry to you two who liked this post.

 

[Gramsci]

Looking at old posts here and Tony Greenstein gets mixed reviews so to say. A controversial figure who isn't shy of confrontation.

Would I say he's is anti Semite? No. Does he repudiate his Jewishness? No.In article he says he's a Jewish atheist , socialist and secularist.

The comment on X he got arrested for he goes into here

Israel’s war on Gaza triggered a war on free speech in the West

I was arrested over a single tweet I wrote in support of Palestinian resistance against Israel’s military.

www.aljazeera.com

This was written months ago and things have moved on.

Forgotten how much flack the early demos against what is happening in Gaza got when they first started.

Leading members of government ( Tory) and opposition Labour ( attempting to stop MPs attending) both having a go.

Due to the level of public support seen at the marches (not the usual suspects) and determination of ordinary public to repeatedly come out month after month despite the criticism by authorities plus Labour losing seats at last election most of what Greenstein talks about in his article has subsided. In this country anyway.

TBF whatever one thinks of Tony Greenstein seems to me charging him over one tweet isn't imo in public interest

 

[teqniq]

Looking at old posts here and Tony Greenstein gets mixed reviews so to say. A controversial figure who isn't shy of confrontation.

Would I say he's is anti Semite? No. Does he repudiate his Jewishness? No.In article he says he's a Jewish atheist , socialist and secularist.

The comment on X he got arrested for he goes into here

Israel’s war on Gaza triggered a war on free speech in the West

I was arrested over a single tweet I wrote in support of Palestinian resistance against Israel’s military.

www.aljazeera.com

This was written months ago and things have moved on.

Forgotten how much flack the early demos against what is happening in Gaza got when they first started.

Leading members of government ( Tory) and opposition Labour ( attempting to stop MPs attending) both having a go.

Due to the level of public support seen at the marches (not the usual suspects) and determination of ordinary public to repeatedly come out month after month despite the criticism by authorities plus Labour losing seats at last election most of what Greenstein talks about in his article has subsided. In this country anyway.

TBF whatever one thinks of Tony Greenstein seems to me charging him over one tweet isn't imo in public interest

I think it would be fair to say that the police have an agenda which they are enthusiastically pursuing:

 

[LDC]

More importantly, is it right that Tony Greenstein should be charged with supporting terrorism?

I don't care, or at least I don't care in the way that I don't care if racists are charged with inciting racial hatred. I wouldn't lobby or argue for the police to arrest them or for them to be charged, but if they are I don't care, and I don't think any solidarity or support should be extended to them. More broadly I think Greenstein and his ilk are absolute poison for radical left wing politics.

I haven't crossed paths with Greenstein for many years, and years ago he definitely used to be a pretty sound person doing lots of hard local political work (if being somewhat hard to actually work with or be around as a person). I think (and as people who are in the same town as him have said) that he's gone a bit off the rails as he's got older, become increasingly grudge driven and obsessive on some topics, and from people I trust he has been heard to make anti-semitic comments on numerous occasions, as plenty of online news reports suggest (whether you agree with them or not) such as:

Tony Greenstein loses appeal over being called a 'notorious antisemite' - Jewish News

The Court of Appeal throws out appeal by the anti-Zionist activist, brought after he unsuccessfully attempted to sue Campaign Against Antisemitism for libel.

www.jewishnews.co.uk

Ex-Labour councillor forced to crowdfund libel claim by notorious activist - Jewish News

Josh Jones, an ex-Labour councillor, successfully defended a libel claim brought by notorious activist Tony Greenstein - but was forced to pay the costs himself.

www.jewishnews.co.uk

Book Review | Zionism During the Holocaust: The Weaponisation of Memory in the Service of State and Nation

Zionism During the Holocaust: The Weaponisation of Memory in the Service of State and Nation is perhaps the worst book I’ve ever read. It has little narrative flow, doesn’t consist of a full revie...

fathomjournal.org

Tony Greenstein ‘handed restraining order’

Anti-Zionist activist reportedly charged with two counts of harassment in connection with various emails sent to the party

www.thejc.com

I mean he's written such lovely titled articles as this as well:

Israel's Holocaust trauma is a myth

Israel’s Gaza genocide is the product of colonial self-victimization, not "trauma."

electronicintifada.net

Whether he can be anti-semitic, say anti-semitic things; or whether as a Jew it's impossible for those things to be true is not something I can arsed to discuss tbh, and I expect most people already have made their mind up on that topic.

He's also quite happy to share stages, platforms and support people such as Chris Williamson, Craig Murray etc. and I think generally he's fallen into the campist gang of weak and selective anti-imperialism that we've discussed on here many times.

 

[hitmouse]

I think it would be fair to say that the police have an agenda which they are enthusiastically pursuing:

View attachment 455879

One of those things where I've not made a proper study of the data or anything, and correlation is not causation, but it does definitely feel like, if anything, police action has been more heavy-handed since our new ex-DPP PM came in to office.

 

[PTK]

I don't care, or at least I don't care in the way that I don't care if racists are charged with inciting racial hatred. I wouldn't lobby or argue for the police to arrest them or for them to be charged, but if they are I don't care, and I don't think any solidarity or support should be extended to them. More broadly I think Greenstein and his ilk are absolute poison for radical left wing politics.

I haven't crossed paths with Greenstein for many years, and years ago he definitely used to be a pretty sound person doing lots of hard local political work (if being somewhat hard to actually work with or be around as a person). I think (and as people who are in the same town as him have said) that he's gone a bit off the rails as he's got older, become increasingly grudge driven and obsessive on some topics, and from people I trust he has been heard to make anti-semitic comments on numerous occasions, as plenty of online news reports suggest (whether you agree with them or not) such as:

Tony Greenstein loses appeal over being called a 'notorious antisemite' - Jewish News

The Court of Appeal throws out appeal by the anti-Zionist activist, brought after he unsuccessfully attempted to sue Campaign Against Antisemitism for libel.

www.jewishnews.co.uk

Ex-Labour councillor forced to crowdfund libel claim by notorious activist - Jewish News

Josh Jones, an ex-Labour councillor, successfully defended a libel claim brought by notorious activist Tony Greenstein - but was forced to pay the costs himself.

www.jewishnews.co.uk

Book Review | Zionism During the Holocaust: The Weaponisation of Memory in the Service of State and Nation

Zionism During the Holocaust: The Weaponisation of Memory in the Service of State and Nation is perhaps the worst book I’ve ever read. It has little narrative flow, doesn’t consist of a full revie...

fathomjournal.org

Tony Greenstein ‘handed restraining order’

Anti-Zionist activist reportedly charged with two counts of harassment in connection with various emails sent to the party

www.thejc.com

I mean he's written such lovely titled articles as this as well:

Israel's Holocaust trauma is a myth

Israel’s Gaza genocide is the product of colonial self-victimization, not "trauma."

electronicintifada.net

Whether he can be anti-semitic, say anti-semitic things; or whether as a Jew it's impossible for those things to be true is not something I can arsed to discuss tbh, and I expect most people already have made their mind up on that topic.

He's also quite happy to share stages, platforms and support people such as Chris Williamson, Craig Murray etc. and I think generally he's fallen into the campist gang of weak and selective anti-imperialism that we've discussed on here many times.

Have you actually read the first four articles that you posted? If so, could you point to anti-Jewish statements made by Tony Greenstein quoted in the articles? I have just read them, and I can find no anti-Jewish statements made by Tony Greenstein in the articles.

It is more than a little irresponsible to accuse people of being anti-Jewish on the basis of no evidence.

 

[PTK]

Would it have been correct to have charged John Lennon with supporting terrorism, giving the fact that he carried a slogan supporting the IRA against the British Army?

Would it have been correct to arrest people in Britain who expressed support for the African National Congress of South Africa, given that the ANC was engaged in terrorism?

 

[Gramsci]

I think it would be fair to say that the police have an agenda which they are enthusiastically pursuing:

View attachment 455879

Yes I agree.

Also this was posted on another thread

Swansea mother ‘traumatised’ by arrest under Terrorism Act

Emma Kamio describes ‘abuse’ of act after daughter’s alleged involvement in action against Israeli arms company

www.theguardian.com

Seems to me the police are using anti terrorism legislation in very broad way against people who at no stretch of the imagination are terrorists. Or involved in terrorist groups

Whatever one thinks of their politics I find this use of anti terror legislation in a democracy concerning

My post was trying to be reasonable on this.

But yes you are correct imo.

 

[PTK]

I don't care, or at least I don't care in the way that I don't care if racists are charged with inciting racial hatred. I wouldn't lobby or argue for the police to arrest them or for them to be charged, but if they are I don't care, and I don't think any solidarity or support should be extended to them. More broadly I think Greenstein and his ilk are absolute poison for radical left wing politics.

I haven't crossed paths with Greenstein for many years, and years ago he definitely used to be a pretty sound person doing lots of hard local political work (if being somewhat hard to actually work with or be around as a person). I think (and as people who are in the same town as him have said) that he's gone a bit off the rails as he's got older, become increasingly grudge driven and obsessive on some topics, and from people I trust he has been heard to make anti-semitic comments on numerous occasions, as plenty of online news reports suggest (whether you agree with them or not) such as:

Tony Greenstein loses appeal over being called a 'notorious antisemite' - Jewish News

The Court of Appeal throws out appeal by the anti-Zionist activist, brought after he unsuccessfully attempted to sue Campaign Against Antisemitism for libel.

www.jewishnews.co.uk

Ex-Labour councillor forced to crowdfund libel claim by notorious activist - Jewish News

Josh Jones, an ex-Labour councillor, successfully defended a libel claim brought by notorious activist Tony Greenstein - but was forced to pay the costs himself.

www.jewishnews.co.uk

Book Review | Zionism During the Holocaust: The Weaponisation of Memory in the Service of State and Nation

Zionism During the Holocaust: The Weaponisation of Memory in the Service of State and Nation is perhaps the worst book I’ve ever read. It has little narrative flow, doesn’t consist of a full revie...

fathomjournal.org

Tony Greenstein ‘handed restraining order’

Anti-Zionist activist reportedly charged with two counts of harassment in connection with various emails sent to the party

www.thejc.com

I mean he's written such lovely titled articles as this as well:

Israel's Holocaust trauma is a myth

Israel’s Gaza genocide is the product of colonial self-victimization, not "trauma."

electronicintifada.net

Whether he can be anti-semitic, say anti-semitic things; or whether as a Jew it's impossible for those things to be true is not something I can arsed to discuss tbh, and I expect most people already have made their mind up on that topic.

He's also quite happy to share stages, platforms and support people such as Chris Williamson, Craig Murray etc. and I think generally he's fallen into the campist gang of weak and selective anti-imperialism that we've discussed on here many times.

I have just read the article by Tony Greenstein that you posted, and I cannot see much wrong with it. It is interesting that Netanyahu and others have tried to pin the Holocaust on a Palestinian leader.