Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[Pickman's model]

In my experience a lot of this stuff gets handed to people by their parents / families (or whatever immediate influential others) when they're small children, and I imagine that's really common for people growing up in some way apart from the mainstream dominant culture - be that children of immigrants or in an ethnic minority at a predominantly white /christian school or whatever. I think its a mistake to frame this so much as individual choice, a sort of voluntary consumerist type thing.

Yeh parents have no choice how to bring their children up

 

[redsquirrel]

In my experience a lot of this stuff gets handed to people by their parents / families (or whatever immediate influential others) when they're small children, and I imagine that's really common for people growing up in some way apart from the mainstream dominant culture -

A lot of what stuff? Identity politics? Such politics has only been around for a few decades, it's hardly something that has been passed down the ages.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm in a minority of one, fuck you all

 

[bimble]

Yeh parents have no choice how to bring their children up

They fuck your up .. etc. One of the several reasons I'm not having kids is this though, wouldn't want to pass on a load of 'you are this type of person' stuff, for them to have to carry around.

 

[TruXta]

A lot of what stuff? Identity politics? Such politics has only been around for a few decades, it's hardly something that has been passed down the ages.

As Idris2002 said above, it goes back much further in other countries. India is another example, where identity politics is just part of the scenery, especially when it comes to voting.

 

[bimble]

A lot of what stuff? Identity politics? Such politics has only been around for a few decades, it's hardly something that has been passed down the ages.

When would you date it from, civil rights movement?

 

[danny la rouge]

When would you date it from, civil rights movement?

Identity politics? I actually think a lot of the anti-racism in the 60s was grounded in socialism. I'd put what I'm referring to a little later, maybe the 70s and certainly by the 80s. Not that there's absolute geological stratification or anything.

 

[mojo pixy]

It's obviously a massive thing in the USA because it's such a deeply racialised society. Ditto any other place (India mentioned above) where your social status really does depend not just on skills or even wealth, but on your cultural background and what you are. And then I see what I am (socially) and who I am (personally) being conflated quite widely, and that's easy to do so it's no surprise, but it's really unhelpful IMO.

It would be better in any case if we treated people based on what they do rather than what they are. But I see things going the other way at the moment.

 

[Borp]

Are our identities just what's given to us though. And nothing is self created. I know this goes into the rabbit hole of philosophy where there aren't really too many answers. But doesn't the evidence show we're a bit of both.

I would say that insofar as our identity isn't questioned by us it's a given. But I think it is possible to question our given identities or beliefs fundamentally and to come up with our own conclusions. I think it's in those areas that we become individuals rather than a group identity.

That's certainly how I experience other people and myself. Part given identity, part individual.

 

[bimble]

I'm ill and not up to saying anything very sensible this eve so instead here's a photo from the annual reparations march at Brixton a couple of summers ago. I kind of love this for the madness of where people can end up when thoroughly disappeared down certain rabbitholes. i know, not really on topic, soz.

 

[Red Cat]

Identity sounds static to me, like the reification of experience, which is dynamic, contradictory, in relation to others.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Worth a read for some discussion of 'American thought', relating somewhat to this thread subject.

Intellectual imperialism: On the export of peculiarly American notions of race, culture, and class

 

[mojo pixy]

I do think identity is mostly what we're given, with a little of what we choose mixed in. More what we choose as we get older perhaps, but I think a lot of us suffer from some kind of sunk costs fallacy when it comes to who we think we are. I'm pretty sure I do.

 

[chilango]

Identity sounds static to me, like the reification of experience, which is dynamic, contradictory, in relation to others.

Yes!!!

I was going to post that "identity might be the reifucation of experience" earlier but bottled it in case I was using reification wrongly

 

[TruXta]

Identity sounds static to me, like the reification of experience, which is dynamic, contradictory, in relation to others.

I agree, but I also think that we're biologically predisposed to acquiring identity as a way to not go mad. It's basically the same principle behind stereotyping, if we don't do it there's too much information and too many decisions to handle.

 

[Red Cat]

I agree, but I also think that we're biologically predisposed to acquiring identity as a way to not go mad. It's basically the same principle behind stereotyping, if we don't do it there's too much information and too many decisions to handle.

This is interesting. Undifferentiated formlessness feels like madness, yes. So we do need some shape, contours and boundaries in order to have some sense of self, and a large degree of integration of all aspects of our personality, integrity. But rigid border control of what is allowed into our identity and what is kept out seems to me to be based on a weak sense of self not a strong one.

I think madness is a kind of breakdown in one's sense of self into fragments, which is why I wonder if the increasing proliferation of social identities feels like a kind of madness, and in contrast to the integrity and strength of solidarity based on universal ideas of humanity.

 

[LDC]

But we're not just chatting about personal identity and where we get that from here, but the manifestation of identity politics as a political project, something very different.

 

[Idris2002]

I do think identity is mostly what we're given, with a little of what we choose mixed in. More what we choose as we get older perhaps, but I think a lot of us suffer from some kind of sunk costs fallacy when it comes to who we think we are. I'm pretty sure I do.

I'm Irish now. But I can remember a time when I was Canadian.

 

[Idris2002]

Worth a read for some discussion of 'American thought', relating somewhat to this thread subject.

Intellectual imperialism: On the export of peculiarly American notions of race, culture, and class

That was really good, but there were a few points where I had to disagree! I'm on a phone now though, so a proper response will have to wait.

 

[Athos]

But we're not just chatting about personal identity and where we get that from here, but the manifestation of identity politics as a political project, something very different.

Yes, and isn't that illustrative of the problem. People conflating/confusing challanges to their identity politics with attacks on their identity is post of the cause of the rancour.

 

[Jonti]

I'm wondering whether there's an important distinction between experience and identity.

I liked this post by kabbes in the other thread

There is another important facet of identity that has seemingly been overlooked, or at least downplayed, a lot in the talk in this specific thread. Identity is normally seen as the interplay of the assumed and the assigned, and you can't just divorce the two. As a gross oversimplification, the self is formed by its reaction to the assigned identity, and how it interprets this through its assumed identity. This is a key element of the TERF case, and it can't just be wished away even if the way that the TERFs react to it is frequently problematic in its own right.

The assigned in this case being experiential (as it's the one that's forced upon you), in my reading, and the assumed being what one finds within oneself.

 

[alsoknownas]

If you're a member of a group that's being oppressed in a particular way you probably (if you're fairly enlightened) want two things - the eventual destruction of the system that sustains that oppression, and two - as much resistance, breathing room, and progress as you can muster in the meantime. Always (ALWAYS!) it's the people suffering alongside you in that particular manner who are keenest to the needs of the situation, most willing to take action, and best placed to help create a culture of change that's effective in the here and now, not just some theoretical future.
I've seen some fantastic cross-cultural support and activism over the years, but surely it has to be acknowledged that no lefty organisation was about to take up the fight at Stonewall, or urgently remind the world that Black Lives Matter or whatever.
I'm suspicious of the whole opposition to identity as a tool for resistance. It feels a lot to me like people feel uncomfortable replacing their existing model, in which there is a clear outside enemy oppressing the group they belong to, with a more complex model in which we all have to deal with our own small (or otherwise) part in facilitating other people's oppression.

 

[DotCommunist]

surely it has to be acknowledged that no lefty organisation was about to take up the fight at Stonewall, or urgently remind the world that Black Lives Matter or whatever.

for real?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

If you're a member of a group that's being oppressed in a particular way you probably (if you're fairly enlightened) want two things - the eventual destruction of the system that sustains that oppression, and two - as much resistance, breathing room, and progress as you can muster in the meantime. Always (ALWAYS!) it's the people suffering alongside you in that particular manner who are keenest to the needs of the situation, most willing to take action, and best placed to help create a culture of change that's effective in the here and now, not just some theoretical future.
I've seen some fantastic cross-cultural support and activism over the years, but surely it has to be acknowledged that no lefty organisation was about to take up the fight at Stonewall, or urgently remind the world that Black Lives Matter or whatever.
I'm suspicious of the whole opposition to identity as a tool for resistance. It feels a lot to me like people feel uncomfortable replacing their existing model, in which there is a clear outside enemy oppressing the group they belong to, with a more complex model in which we all have to deal with our own small (or otherwise) part in facilitating other people's oppression.

This suggests that all people fighting oppression are ultimately socialists. They aren't. Some are liberals, some are Nationalists.

 

[alsoknownas]

for real?

Yeah, I'm coming at this from my own personal experience, not some massive analysis of every movement that ever existed or whatever, but taking the Black Lives thing - it's raised awareness in a way that nothing else did. I'd say it's even impacted on the issue in a front line way. What can you point to that was widespread and lefty and going on before that? Genuine question.

 

[Red Cat]

Yes, and isn't that illustrative of the problem. People conflating/confusing challanges to their identity politics with attacks on their identity is post of the cause of the rancour.

I agree we've moved away from the political realm but maybe we need to look at the possible causes of that conflation because just telling people that they have made a category error isn't that helpful. Surely the development of a strong sense of self, knowing who one is, with whom one belongs, is a social and political issue. What kind of social organisation makes it more likely that people will feel that they belong? Not feeling a sense of belonging and looking for a home (having a weak sense of who one is in relation to others) can lead people into nazism or isis as well as the SWP and psychotherapy trainings.

 

[danny la rouge]

we all have to deal with our own small (or otherwise) part in facilitating other people's oppression.

Who are you oppressing and why?

 

[Athos]

I agree we've moved away from the political realm but maybe we need to look at the possible causes of that conflation because just telling people that they have made a category error isn't that helpful. Surely the development of a strong sense of self, knowing who one is, with whom one belongs, is a social and political issue. What kind of social organisation makes it more likely that people will feel that they belong? Not feeling a sense of belonging and looking for a home (having a weak sense of who one is in relation to others) can lead people into nazism or isis as well as the SWP and psychotherapy trainings.

Agreed.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yeah, I'm coming at this from my own personal experience, not some massive analysis of every movement that ever existed or whatever, but taking the Black Lives thing - it's raised awareness in a way that nothing else did. I'd say it's even impacted on the issue in a front line way. What can you point to that was widespread and lefty and going on before that? Genuine question.

How far back do you want to go? The Black Panthers, W.E.B. Du Bois, Hubert Harrison, Harry Haywood, Claude McKay, Claudia Jones, C.L.R. James, Audre Lorde and so many others were all clear they were fighting capitalism in order to fight racism.

 

[TruXta]

But we're not just chatting about personal identity and where we get that from here, but the manifestation of identity politics as a political project, something very different.

Sure. But you can't have one without the other, and there's no point pretending only the political-economical side matters.

edit - what Red Cat said better