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Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

When I was in the SWP, around 1995, I was asked to go to Pride along with my LGBT comrades, sell Socialist Worker on the bus down to London from Manchester. I think it was my most cringeworthy SWP experience, trying to sell SW to people who wanted to party, were already partying at 7 in the morning, but actually I did sell some, and I recall having a few political conversations on the bus and at the event. I may even have had some fun alongside doing my revolutionary duty :eek:

I remember being told to go and sell the paper at a candle-lit vigil on World AIDS Day :mad:

I refused. I attended the vigil, without the paper.
 
I think in essence, ID politics are a call to fairness. And while it's hard to argue against things being more fair, fairness in itself often isn't enough to win something widespread support: especially if things being more fair for some can appear - or be made to appear - to have a negative impact on other groups.

Which is why organising in ways which emphasise and create shared interests are more effective and get wider support than those that emphasise differences. IDpol may be able to achieve immediate victories, but I think for those victories to be sustained and deep-rooted it needs to be demonstrated that those victories are also the victories of the wider community.
 
I think in essence, ID politics are a call to fairness. And while it's hard to argue against things being more fair, fairness in itself often isn't enough to win something widespread support: especially if things being more fair for some can appear - or be made to appear - to have a negative impact on other groups.

Which is why organising in ways which emphasise and create shared interests are more effective and get wider support than those that emphasise differences. IDpol may be able to achieve immediate victories, but I think for those victories to be sustained and deep-rooted it needs to be demonstrated that those victories are also the victories of the wider community.
the l&g movement of the 70s, 80s 90s were effective in removing some legal obsticles, changing public opinion and a 'call to fairness' I've been told on this thread that those were not ID politics and in other places been dismissed because they were. Were they or weren't they? What do you think?
 
the l&g movement of the 70s, 80s 90s were effective in removing some legal obsticles, changing public opinion and a 'call to fairness' I've been told on this thread that those were not ID politics and in other places been dismissed because they were. Were they or weren't they? What do you think?

I would guess that some of it will have been ID politics - although not quite like the identitypolitics of today - and some of it won't have been. What redsquirrel said early is that identitypolitics is not the only form of challenging discrimination or oppression. anti-homophobia, sexual equality actions he didn't mean that they could not be identity politics, clearly they can be, but being critical of or opposed to identitypolitics does not mean that you cannot challenge homophobia or that you don't think it matters, as there are other bases from which to examine (and thereby act to remove) oppression than identity.
 
Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism ARE all structural problems because (while they may have pre-existing oppressions before capitalism) capitalism utilises these oppressions. Sexism/homophobia/transphobia result from the gendered division of labour. Racism is the result of colonialism, slavery, and capitalist expansion (and has been utilised by capitalists to divide the working class and create a stratified labour market (ie workers with full rights, migrant workers with rights but some restrictions, migrant working illegally or the stratifications resultant from slavery in the USA). Ableism results at least partly from class society, the labour market, and the value placed on work (ie if you are working class but you can't work as fast as is needed or you need adjustments, or some you are unable to do some types of work or need care) and the individualisation of society. Where some of these oppressions have reduced in their impact or changed in how they are structured in the last years/decades its is partly because of our organisation (whether anti-oppression or class based) but also because capitalists has found a way to incorporate some of these demands in neoliberalism.

None of us (including the unions, the left, radicals, feminists, anti-racists, LGBT activists) are outside the structure of this society. We are all inculcated with racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic/ableist attitudes because we are socialised into this society - and it takes a process to overcome this. Therefore it is not surprising that despite believing that "an injury to one is an injury to all" some trade unionists and left and radical people have acted or organised in racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or ableist ways and many have not fully supported the fight against these oppressions. It also means that many working class people who are oppressed in these ways may experience much of this oppression - violence, abuse, bullying, ostracism, harassment - from other working class people - and for this reason autonomous organising with people who experience the same oppression is sometimes necessary. Undoing internalised oppression and forming an identity/the ability to name an oppression is also sometimes a necessary process which also needs autonomy.

This autonomous organising very often is working class people [LGBT people, for example] organising together, and its a bit disingenuous to suggest otherwise. The problem is that there are also parts of the feminist movement, the LGBT movement, etc organised by people who are part of, or wanting to become part of, the capitalist class - and some of the reforms they want might seem to have the potential to change things for the better for women, LGBT people, etc in general - though of course they will never get to the root of the problem. So without a structural analysis that includes class the organising efforts of oppressed working class people can be co-opted into these cross-class movements and incorporated into neoliberalist reforms. This is what I think of as identity politics.

This isn't inevitable however - there's a long history of organising efforts by working class women, LGBT people, black people, disabled people, etc that does follow a structural analysis - aimed at challenging state violence and oppression or violence and oppression from other parts of the working class, aimed at changing unions and other working class organisations to respond to oppression or forming new working class organisations that do that, and expanding autonomous action to give and receive solidarity. This to me is not identity politics in the main (though as none of us are outside of the structures of society of course sometimes organising and analysis is influenced by identity politics, neoliberalism, and oppressive attitudes).
thats the best explaination I've seen so far.

The clause 28 protests and pride movement of the 80s did not only come from working class people. There were people from every background involved with privelege and with out.

I recall every Pride meeting being a battle ground of ideologies with more arguing than work, constant debates about iseas, money, race, gender, disability. Not so much about class though, you could be very priveleged yet still get sacked, evicted and beaten up all legally. There was a general feeling too that we were all 'underclass' all rejected by mainstream society and many of us rejected by our own class or family too.

So without a structural analysis that includes class the organising efforts of oppressed working class people can be co-opted into these cross-class movements and incorporated into neoliberalist reforms.
I understand that point. When I heard Cameron speaking up for same sex marriage, it made me sick.

In the case of Gay Liberation or the many lgbt+ organisations it spawned - they didn't include 'a structural analysis that includes class' and weren't 'the organising efforts of oppressed working class people' By that definition they were what is being called ID politics.
 
I would guess that some of it will have been ID politics - although not quite like the identitypolitics of today - and some of it won't have been. What redsquirrel said early is that identitypolitics is not the only form of challenging discrimination or oppression. anti-homophobia, sexual equality actions he didn't mean that they could not be identity politics, clearly they can be, but being critical of or opposed to identitypolitics does not mean that you cannot challenge homophobia or that you don't think it matters, as there are other bases from which to examine (and thereby act to remove) oppression than identity.
That would suggest the concept of ID politics of today can't really be applied to the activism I was involved in.

The question remains how else should we challenge inequalities like homophobia? Is there a structural class analysis that can be applied?
 
It might be useful to explore where identity politics emerged from in the U.K.

Very briefly, EP Thompson and other Marxist thinkers who left the CP over the invasion of Hungary went on to form a journal called the New Left Review.

Their experience of the CP and Stalinism led them to attempt to rethink left/Marxist politics and coincided with an academic movement that questioned linear empirical history and focusssed instead on language and power and privilege within texts.

5 years later Stuart Hall's introduction in NLR condemned all 'top-down' politics and told us all to look for resistance in cultural identity.

The reasons for this turn are manifold but whatever the reasons it was the beginning of an - in my view disasterous - turn away from economically interventionist politics and towards the politics of identity.

I'll post more on this later but I think it's important to note where and why identity politics emerged.
 
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The clause 28 protests and pride movement of the 80s did not only come from working class people. There were people from every background involved with privelege and with out.

IMO you really need to go and re-read some of the posts on here as I think you're fundamentally missing something we're addressing.

Class, in the way many of us mean and use it, is not about education, culture, or what food you like to eat - and fuck all to do with 'privilege'. Class is an economic category that's fundamental to capitalism, and if you don't understand that and take it into account in your analysis and activity you end up with very problematic politics.

So, the perspective you seem to have is one of the fundamental problems with identity politics and why some of us are criticizing elements of it here.

Without addressing class you cannot mount a challenge to capitalism.

PS: There are loads of critiques of homophobia (and of course gender/race) that come from a revolutionary class perspective.
 
Both of these are great posts. Not contradictory.

It's that bloody wheel of oppression thing, tick box oppressions. Top trumps , that the phrase ID politics brings to mind. Where as a nuanced understanding and examination of how different groups of people are specifically fucked over, is necessary. I am mostly reading this thread but these two posts stood out. from my own perspective, as a disabled person, allbeit be Working class. Discrimination, in the form of employment prospects, social attitudes, can't really be tackled by deferring to Marxion Analysis. Not on any practical level anyway. Yes I know I put that a bit crudely but I'm sort of thinking aloud.
Hi xenon
I think you're on to something with the idea of all this structural analysis not really be much use on a practical level. I was think this earlier how academic theary is all very well - but it doesn't make marches or protests happen. It wouldn't in itself change anything on any useful level. Its all very well having having a unified theology of eveything - but what are people actually going to do? whos going to do the work and how are we going to do it.

People can decry the 'cross class' activism that I used to be involved with, as 'ID politics', but hey we got the law changed, we won! and more than that we were part of a movement that has majorly changed public attitudes.

And theres always more to do.
 
IMO you really need to go and re-read some of the posts on here as I think you're fundamentally missing something we're addressing.

Class, in the way many of us mean and use it, is not about education, culture, or what food you like to eat - and fuck all to do with 'privilege'. Class is an economic category that's fundamental to capitalism, and if you don't understand that and take it into account in your analysis and activity you end up with very problematic politics.

So, the perspective you seem to have is one of the fundamental problems with identity politics and why some of us are criticizing elements of it here.

Without addressing class you cannot mount a challenge to capitalism.

PS: There are loads of critiques of homophobia (and of course gender/race) that come from a revolutionary class perspective.
I've always struggled with the ever changing definitions of class. never known how it applies to me or people I know. If its not at all about privilege then I'm completely lost.

Perhaps I do I need to do homework or have a degree in politics to join in any p&p thread.
 
I've always struggled with the ever changing definitions of class. never known how it applies to me or people I know. If its not at all about privilege then I'm completely lost.

Perhaps I do I need to do homework or have a degree in politics to join in any p&p thread.

You can get a basic grasp by reading the communist manifesto which is 30 odd pages long. I don't have a degree, let alone one in politics.

(Although class is less clear cut nowadays admittedly).
 
I've always struggled with the ever changing definitions of class. never known how it applies to me or people I know. If its not at all about privilege then I'm completely lost.

Perhaps I do I need to do homework or have a degree in politics to join in any p&p thread.

Sorry if my post seemed patronizing. If it's any consolation I have neither a degree nor A levels. And I agree, I think the issue of class is very muddled on the left, it took me a while to grapple with it and come to my current position. It is something that needs to be addressed though, and not doing is is very problematic, hence some of these criticisms of identity politics.
 
Thanks for the apology - I did think you were patronising, so I appreciate it.

I was an activist. I've spent years struggling against one injustice or another. The world is still full of small groups of people saying 'do it this way'.

I've always been 'left', obviously not left enough for some here. I'm struggling with this stuff now. I find it difficult to get any kind of overview or context. I just want to live in a fairer world and I'm looking for ways to make that happen.
 
You can get a basic grasp by reading the communist manifesto which is 30 odd pages long. I don't have a degree, let alone one in politics.

(Although class is less clear cut nowadays admittedly).
Grandma /eggs! I do have a degree (design not politics) I'm not a school kid and I don't want anymore fucking homework.

That said, I do read stuff - but only if its interesting. Surely the communist manifest is only interesting as an historical item now? Having read excerpts, met many 'communists' and seen the downfall of the berlin wall etc. I don't think its the concept of the bourgeoisie and the proletariat that I'm struggling with here.
 
the concept of the bourgeoisie and the proletariat

At heart I believe it's still this. For me, the main flaw of identitypolitics is that people with all kinds of identity make up both bourgeoisie and proletariat. Proles with all kinds of identity aspire to be bourgeois, left, right and centre. So basically, how is one meant to find true allies based on identity, for any struggle which isn't by definition limited in scope?

I want to acknowledging a the same time that limited-scope actions can create visibility for certain groups, as well as start dialogue by bringing public attention onto particular issues, and that makes them useful.

I also want to acknowledge that the terms Bourgeoisie and Proletariat have dated somewhat in that in these post-industrial, zero-hours, self-employed latter days, a lot of (functionally) working class people look (and would identify as) middle class because of what they own and attitudes they hold. Lines are blurred and this is IMO one of the main reasons for the rise of IDpol as a protest culture.
 
At heart I believe it's still this. For me, the main flaw of identitypolitics is that people with all kinds of identity make up both bourgeoisie and proletariat. Proles with all kinds of identity aspire to be bourgeois, left, right and centre. So basically, how is one meant to find true allies based on identity, for any struggle which isn't by definition limited in scope?

I want to acknowledging a the same time that limited-scope actions can create visibility for certain groups, as well as start dialogue by bringing public attention onto particular issues, and that makes them useful.

I also want to acknowledge that the terms Bourgeoisie and Proletariat have dated somewhat in that in these post-industrial, zero-hours, self-employed latter days, a lot of (functionally) working class people look (and would identify as) middle class because of what they own and attitudes they hold. Lines are blurred and this is IMO one of the main reasons for the rise of IDpol as a protest culture.
that makes sense to me. At the beginning of this thread I thought it all seemed so polarised. There's oviously lots of shades of opinion on this.
 
For me, a big part of the criticism of ID pol is concerned with the methodology as much as the ideology i.e. the sort of tactics used within this mileu. Though admttedly, the tactics can be used outside of IDpol, and ID pol can be done without those tactics.
 
As someone with a degree in design, that's like saying the history of typography is irrelevant now.
not irrelevant but mostly of use to students. Having read Jan Tschichold 'Die neue typogaphy' or Eric Gills essay- I wouldn't recommend it to someone wanting understand the nuances of the requirements of digital typography today.
 
For me, a big part of the criticism of ID pol is concerned with the methodology as much as the ideology i.e. the sort of tactics used within this mileu. Though admttedly, the tactics can be used outside of IDpol, and ID pol can be done without those tactics.
What are the tactics used within this mileu?
 
What are the tactics used within this mileu?

Some of the contrived offence-taking, the unwarranted no-platforming, the abuse of the idea of safe spaces, the rejection of facts/logic/truth in favour of experience, the smearing of opponents as bigots, tone policing, etc., etc.. Basically all the really shit stuff from US student politics which seems to have infected much of what calls iteself the left here (though I wouldn't describe it that way).
 
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