I became a muslim last night

[cesare]

I dunno you seem to have some sort of issues with imagining people are patronising you if they don't give a load of disingenuous qualifications and caveats to present themselves as simple humble folk, which to my mind is extremely patronising.

Fuck off The bloke's just making money off the science racket

 

[revol68]

Fuck off The bloke's just making money off the science racket

Like everyone else who's published or has a good related to science then?

 

[tangentlama]

Go away cretin, more intelligent people are having a discussion.

Translates: I can only become aggressive and verbally abuse you, because I don't really have an argument.

 

[cesare]

I can assure you that sexism, homophobia etc, is a man-made phenomenon, and not central to my religion (Judaism) or to Islam.

In my synagogue, we were taught that love of G-d is central. We were taught that G-d shows love for us and we show our love for G-d through the covenant we make with G-d. That covenant is all-important and that covenant is central.

No.

What your synagogue teaches isn't necessarily a general indicator of your wider faith.

 

[revol68]

Translates: I can only become aggressive and verbally abuse you, because I don't really have an argument.

Mate you believe in a sociopath God of which you have to substitute the O for a - to avoid pissing off, I'd imagine you're the one needing to produce some arguments, or perhaps even some evidence.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can assure you that sexism, homophobia etc, is a man-made phenomenon, and not central to my religion (Judaism) or to Islam.

In my synagogue, we were taught that love of G-d is central. We were taught that G-d shows love for us and we show our love for G-d through the covenant we make with G-d. That covenant is all-important and that covenant is central.

by 'g-d' i take it you mean yahweh.

if 'g-d' showed any love for you, surely s/he'd allow you to use their bloody name.

but what you seem to be saying is that you enter into a contract - a covenant, if you will - of unspecified nature, scope and duration. could you tell me whether you were mentally competent when you entered into this agreement with this being of doubtful name - and, i might add, dubious existence? i would also be interested to find out what provisions are made within the contract, or covenant, for failure on the part of any party to fulfil their obligations, and, indeed, what those obligations are. finally, have you submitted this contract, or covenant, to a competent legal authority to take a look over?

e2a: what form does this 'love' the being you refer to as 'g-d' take? is it sexual or merely platonic? surely entering into a relationship with a non-human entity who has not as yet made any formal declaration of affection, let alone love, for you personally could end in tears. it sounds as though this being has a number of other relationships on the go at the same time, which provides for a number of rather obvious conflicts of interest. is there any mechanism for arbitration within the 'covenant' document?

 

[revol68]

No.

What your synagogue teaches isn't necessarily a general indicator of your wider faith.

Has his synagogue thrown out the whole old testament or do they just not mention those uncomfortable things like vicious homophobia, sexism, domestic violence, and genocide.

Where exactly does smashing Cananite infants heads off rocks and raping their women fit in the message of love?

 

[cesare]

Like everyone else who's published or has a good related to science then?

He's cornered a market in profit making popularist science. Does he publish serious stuff elsewhere?

 

[cesare]

Has his synagogue thrown out the whole old testament or do they just not mention those uncomfortable things like vicious homophobia, sexism, domestic violence, and genocide.

Where exactly does smashing Cananite infants heads off rocks and raping their women fit in the message of love?

Focusing on the word according to the people transcribing it at the time, ain't a good place to start. You have your fundies insisting that the translators' interpreted word at that time is The Word Of God, but those are few and far bewteen.

 

[tangentlama]

I can assure you that your religion is a man made phenomenon and with no relation to beings with supernatural powers.

Organised religion is human-made, that's for sure - science, ethics, law, history, culture and customs are all part of religious tradition. The idea that there is an id, an ego, and a superego is also a man-made phenomenon. That people dress wells and dedicate them to the supranatural being they believe protects/guards that well, or that maiden's dance in spring wearing white whilst young men look on are cultural phenomenons. What's your point, caller? That these social/natural customs are pointless because your libertarian ideology has all the answers?

Also try reading your old testament dickhead, there's plenty of love in that.

Shir ha-Shirim is full of love for another - both for G-d and for one's lover.

FYI I don't even call my holy books "the old testament", so why should I read my old testament when I don't have an old testament?
Were you brought up in the Christian tradition. You must have been to call it "the old testament".

Also the fact you engage in sill superstitions like substituting a - for the O in GOD only shows what a lot of superstitious wank it is.

It's respectful in my tradition. It's not a superstition.

 

[cesare]

by 'g-d' i take it you mean yahweh.

if 'g-d' showed any love for you, surely s/he'd allow you to use their bloody name.

but what you seem to be saying is that you enter into a contract - a covenant, if you will - of unspecified nature, scope and duration. could you tell me whether you were mentally competent when you entered into this agreement with this being of doubtful name - and, i might add, dubious existence? i would also be interested to find out what provisions are made within the contract, or covenant, for failure on the part of any party to fulfil their obligations, and, indeed, what those obligations are. finally, have you submitted this contract, or covenant, to a competent legal authority to take a look over?

e2a: what form does this 'love' the being you refer to as 'g-d' take? is it sexual or merely platonic? surely entering into a relationship with a non-human entity who has not as yet made any formal declaration of affection, let alone love, for you personally could end in tears. it sounds as though this being has a number of other relationships on the go at the same time, which provides for a number of rather obvious conflicts of interest. is there any mechanism for arbitration within the 'covenant' document?

It's a lot easier when you can accept the possibility of a god/s, but reject humankind's interpretation of that possibility and reject rituals based on that interpretation.

 

[tangentlama]

Has his synagogue thrown out the whole old testament or do they just not mention those uncomfortable things like vicious homophobia, sexism, domestic violence, and genocide.

Where exactly does smashing Cananite infants heads off rocks and raping their women fit in the message of love?

Things were not so great in your country in the Bronze Age either - there was a fair amount of infanticide, raping, murdering, domestic violence, cattle-stealing and pillaging and declaring your neighbours to be your enemy, etc going on.

 

[cesare]

Things were not so great in your country in the Bronze Age either - there was a fair amount of infanticide, raping, murdering, domestic violence, cattle-stealing and pillaging and declaring your neighbours to be your enemy, etc going on.

That doesn't say anything much. I'm not very clear about the Bronze Age - what was it like then? And how do you know?

 

[8ball]

Things were not so great in your country in the Bronze Age either - there was a fair amount of infanticide, raping, murdering, domestic violence, cattle-stealing and pillaging and declaring your neighbours to be your enemy, etc going on.

Cattle stealing??

<hides the cows>

 

[Detroit City]

After a few meetings with an imam, who was a really nice bloke, where he discussed the basics of Islam, he held my hands and i said La ilaha illallah Muhammad-ur-Rasulullah and that was it.

thats not much of a ceremony...

when's the circumcision?

 

[the button]

That doesn't say anything much. I'm not very clear about the Bronze Age - what was it like then? And how do you know?

More to the point, I don't think anyone's claiming that the conduct of the ancient Britons was somehow born out of some special and privileged relationship with a loving god.

 

[cesare]

More to the point, I don't think anyone's claiming that the conduct of the ancient Britons was somehow born out of some special and privileged relationship with a loving god.

And further, the Bronze Age probably wasn't restricted to ancient Britons and their beliefs.

 

[tangentlama]

That doesn't say anything much. I'm not very clear about the Bronze Age - what was it like then? And how do you know?

revol68 mentioned the warring between peoples who had different religions in Canaan in the Bronze Age which AFAIK were written down in Hebrew by religious (Judaic) historians/scribes at least 1000 years later at the end of the Iron Age in Jerusalem.

It was not any different in his country either at that time. No idea what his country's different religions were because very little has survived through folk-tales/oral traditions and what has survived was written down by the Christian dominant ideology within the last 1000 years.

revol's argument is all about human nature, and nothing much to do with the nature of G-d, excepting that throughout history, people have often misinterpreted G-d's nature/will according to their own greed/depravity/craziness.

 

[tangentlama]

And further, the Bronze Age probably wasn't restricted to ancient Britons and their beliefs.

And occurred at different times in different regions across the world, and is also absent from many regions.

 

[cesare]

revol68 mentioned the warring between peoples who had different religions in Canaan in the Bronze Age which AFAIK were written down in Hebrew by religious (Judaic) historians/scribes at least 1000 years later at the end of the Iron Age in Jerusalem.

It was not any different in his country either at that time. No idea what his country's different religions were because very little has survived through folk-tales/oral traditions and what has survived was written down by the Christian dominant ideology within the last 1000 years.

revol's argument is all about human nature, and nothing much to do with the nature of G-d, excepting that throughout history, people have interpreted .

I don't even know where to start with that, it's so higgledy piggledy.

To start with, what country are you in?

 

[tangentlama]

I'm not in Bronze Age Canaan, that's for sure.

 

[revol68]

Dunno where he is but he's obviously a Juice and from his language on this thread sees Israel as his country.

Anyway, he is 100% correct that such writings are not the word of G-D and that's because there is no such superhero in the heavens overlooking a chosen people, leading them from slavery to genocidal land grabs in Judea.

However this then begs the question as to why he is faithful to this G-D as outlined in the Torah (or Old Testament to my catholic upbringing), if it isn't the word of G-D then why does he follow it, why is it the Holy book upon which his faith is based, upon which this covenant is based?

 

[tangentlama]

More to the point, I don't think anyone's claiming that the conduct of the ancient Britons was somehow born out of some special and privileged relationship with a loving god.

Today, if someone used the argument that G-d told them to commit what we would all agree was an unlawful act (justificating that act as being G-d's will), they'd probably be imprisoned/sectioned and placed on anti-psychs for life. Abdicating personal responsibility for one's own actions is vile - that person's conscience and reasoning is damaged, yes?

 

[cesare]

Dunno where he is but he's obviously a Juice and from his language on this thread sees Israel as his country.

Anyway, he is 100% correct that such writings are not the word of G-D and that's because there is no such superhero in the heavens overlooking a chosen people, leading them from slavery to genocidal land grabs in Judea.

However this then begs the question as to why he is faithful to this G-D as outlined in the Torah (or Old Testament to my catholic upbringing), if it isn't the word of G-D then why does he follow it, why is it the Holy book upon which his faith is based, upon which this covenant is based?

I haven't got a clue how you arrived at all that based on such minimal information.

 

[revol68]

Today, if someone used the argument that G-d told them to commit what we would all agree was an unlawful act (justificating that act as being G-d's will), they'd probably be imprisoned/sectioned and placed on anti-psychs for life. Abdicating personal responsibility for one's own actions is vile - that person's conscience and reasoning is damaged, yes?

Right so all that stuff written down in the Torah is of this nature?

So exactly how are you Jewish in the religious sense?

 

[revol68]

I haven't got a clue how you arrived at all that based on such minimal information.

Well he uses G-D instead of God and goes to a synagogue so he is clearly Jewish, he also juxtaposed the early history of Israel (as related in the Old Testament/Torah) to concurrent history of where he believes me to be from, this would imply he sees the history of Israel as equivalent for him, hence he most likely sees Israel as his country in some sense.

 

[cesare]

Today, if someone used the argument that G-d told them to commit what we would all agree was an unlawful act (justificating that act as being G-d's will), they'd probably be imprisoned/sectioned and placed on anti-psychs for life. Abdicating personal responsibility for one's own actions is vile - that person's conscience and reasoning is damaged, yes?

What the fuck has this got to do with the word of god, bronze age, and ancient britons ??? All of which you raised.

 

[the button]

Abdicating personal responsibility for one's own actions is vile - that person's conscience and reasoning is damaged, yes?

^ This.

 

[cesare]

Well he uses G-D instead of God and goes to a synagogue so he is clearly Jewish, he also juxtaposed the early history of Israel (as related in the Old Testament/Torah) to concurrent history of where he believes me to be from, this would imply he sees the history of Israel as equivalent for him, hence he most likely sees Israel as his country in some sense.

Well s/he's not unusual in that sense.

 

[revol68]

Well s/he's not unusual in that sense.

did I suggest they were?