I became a muslim last night

[8ball]

...and whatever puts revol68 into a froth of revolutionary spittle is always likely to be a good thing done for good reasons. He has the dogmatic zealotry about his brand of politics that puts me in mind of a swivel-eyed religious convert.

The usual retort to people who demonstrate consistency in their principles . .

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

To clarify, what I mean is that even if the Muslim bloke you date drinks alcohol, smokes, and hardly ever prays or goes to the mosque, he's unlikely to settle for you just refraining from alcohol & pork products, even if you are a devout "person of the book". I was asked to repeat the shahadda on several occasions on the grounds that "come on, it doesn't really mean anything" (I always refused).

If it didn't mean anything there was no point saying it, and if saying one tongue-twisting phrase in classical Arabic instantly converts you to a Muslim, I wasn't having any of it, and certainly not from somebody who was more or less non-practising (apart from not eating pork) except for obsessing about what I believed.

I hope the OP will find that his choice works out well for him.

fair enough but a good friend of my parents has a Moroccan husband and she's never had any pressure to even nominally convert. Whereas I've never even heard of a non muslim male being allowed to marry a muslim woman without at least the 'formality' of a nominal conversion.

 

[phildwyer]

Whereas I've never even heard of a non muslim male being allowed to marry a muslim woman without at least the 'formality' of a nominal conversion.

You have now!

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

You have now!

Yeah but she's turkish, so it doesn't count

 

[Belushi]

Good luck Max mate, hope it brings you closer to your wife and child

 

[ViolentPanda]

the things Phil would do, thank you very much.

And keyboardjockey/Zachor.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Is it like Christianity in that you can piss all over the rules so long as it's 'nominal'?

Yeah, because after all Allah is supposed to be all merciful, compassionate and forgiving, and I reckon if you're a believer, you have to believe that to be the case. That's what I'm relying on anyhow.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

"there is only one God and Mohammed is His prophet." - does that mean you're counting him as Head Prophet, though. It's not very clear. Cos a Muslim could also legitimately say 'there is only one God and Jesus is His prophet' iyswim . . .

You're right, a muslim could say the latter, but it wouldn't be the Shahada the declaration of faith. It would be more like making a random statement of fact as opposed to saying something that converted one to the faith. (Although technically for the Shahada to be valid as a declaration of faith in the conversion sense then it must be said in front of two muslim witnesses - not necessarily at a mosque and not necessarily in front of an imam.)

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Au contraire, although women aren't required to convert, they are expected to do so, and there is a huge amount of social pressure.

My understanding is that there wouldn't be a requirement for a non-muslim woman to convert to Islam to marry a muslim man - so long as they were either Jewish or Christian, because it's my recollection that a muslim man is permitted to marry a woman 'of the book' i.e. of one of the three faiths in the Abrahamic tradition. So technically a muslim man wouldn't be able to marry a Hindu or Bhuddist or atheist or whatever. There would therefore be a requirement for a non-Jewish or non-Muslim or non-Christian woman to convert. It's my understanding that if there is any 'requirement' for a Jewish or Christian woman to convert, then that's more likely to be one of those 'old country' cultural traditions brought with the family from South Asia or wherever and isn't actually a religious requirement. As for who muslim women are permitted to marry, it is unequal in the sense that women aren't permitted to marry any man 'of the book' they are only permitted to marry a muslim man. It's my understanding that this is to afford some safeguards and protection to muslim women. Islam has a lot of rules about behaviour in marriage, about support in the event of divorce, about inheritance rights and so on, and the idea is that muslim women should marry a muslim man so that she benefits from those.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

And congratulations to Maximilian Ping and his new missus and the little one!

 

[revol68]

...and whatever puts revol68 into a froth of revolutionary spittle is always likely to be a good thing done for good reasons. He has the dogmatic zealotry about his brand of politics that puts me in mind of a swivel-eyed religious convert.

I love how insisting on consistency in your politics and thought in general is now labelled dogmatic zealotry, even despite the fact I believe in no holy power, transcendental truths or that there is some one right way to live.

yep, dogmatic zealotry is no longer about stuff like believing their are books out their that are the word of some supernatural creator and ruler who should be appeased and worshipped and instead is just someone who just takes politics and theory seriously enough to take issue with inconsistencies, cop outs, compartmentalisation.

why come into a theory/philosophy thread a whinge at someone for being to rigourous and consistent in their arguments, you wouldn't go into a science threadand moan that someone is a zealot because they insist on reason and logic.

 

[phildwyer]

I love how insisting on consistency in your politics and thought in general is now labelled dogmatic zealotry

I think she was saying you're a nutter actually.

 

[cesare]

I think she was saying you're a nutter actually.

 

[revol68]

I think she was saying you're a nutter actually.

says the theist who insists Marx wasn't a materialist.

 

[revol68]

also who gives a fuck what she thinks I never seen an interesting or thought provoking post from her, infact prior this her last post I read was a load of inane patronising shite in the drugs forum.

 

[cesare]

Fight!



(Who'd a thought it, on a muslim thread)

 

[Greebo]

Devout Christian that I was at the time, I had the sense to find out what was and wasn't a religious requirement for Muslims, and knew that converting definitely wasn't required. Dressing and behaving modestly fair enough, no pork fair enough, but cover my hair no fucking way (when it's not required for Christians).

FWIW The bloke was (rural) North African, so he should've known better.

 

[phildwyer]

Fight!

Revol68 vs. Mrs. Magpie, there can only be one winner.

 

[boskysquelch]

owl versus corvid

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

As for who muslim women are permitted to marry, it is unequal in the sense that women aren't permitted to marry any man 'of the book' they are only permitted to marry a muslim man. It's my understanding that this is to afford some safeguards and protection to muslim women.

Do you really believe that rather shoddy defence that it is about 'safeguards and protection'?

It's fairly evidently about it being the ultimately patriarchal system...

 

[Greebo]

Do you really believe that rather shoddy defence that it is about 'safeguards and protection'?

It's fairly evidently about it being the ultimately patriarchal system...

Other safe *ahem* safeguards include Muslim women not being allowed to remarry if they are (or could be) pregnant; being required to dress modestly and/or cover up during her fertile years for fear of leading men into bad ways; not being allowed to give testimony in court of the same weight as that of a man; not being allowed to leave the house and associate with any adult male she isn't married to (or related to)...

Islam may have had an enlightened attitude towards women compared with what it replaced when it began in Arabia, but IMHO it seldom has now.

 

[cesare]

Do you really believe that rather shoddy defence that it is about 'safeguards and protection'?

It's fairly evidently about it being the ultimately patriarchal system...

Is it though? I agree that in some places/states it might be. But I'm a bit reluctant to think of it as the ultimate patriarchal system across the board.

This is worth reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism

 

[revol68]

Is it though? I agree that in some places/states it might be. But I'm a bit reluctant to think of it as the ultimate patriarchal system across the board.

This is worth reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism

I would suggest anything which tells women they can't choose a partner as freely as men can for 'their own benefit and safety' is the definition of paternal patriarchy.

And Islamic feminism is a joke, like Catholic feminism, at best it's some confused muppets engaged in a lot of cognitive disonance and compartmentalisation, at worse it's an insidious attempt to justify all sorts of reactionary and patriarchial shit as actually being in the interests of women.

 

[cesare]

I would suggest anything which tells women they can't choose a partner as freely as men can for 'their own benefit and safety' is the definition of paternal patriarchy.

And Islamic feminism is a joke, like Catholic feminism, at best it's some confused muppets engaged in a lot of cognitive disonance and compartmentalisation, at worse it's an insidious attempt to justify all sorts of reactionary and patriarchial shit as actually being in the interests of women.

Sometimes it's impossible to even have a fucking conversation, just asking about it, just looking at it from another point of view.

Fuck off with yer rolleyes

 

[revol68]

Also that article seems to engage in the increasingly common cunts trick of conflating Islam with an ethnic background, so that groups like Neither Whores or Submissives are labelled Islamic feminism despite the fact there is nothing explicitly religious about the aims or principles of the organisation other than it was set up by women within what are considered 'Muslim communities'.

 

[revol68]

Sometimes it's impossible to even have a fucking conversation, just asking about it, just looking at it from another point of view.

Fuck off with yer rolleyes

Sorry I just assumed you'd have enough of a clue to have seen throughsuch shit already.

Like I said there seems to be a deliberate trick of labelling anything that comes from countries or communties considered 'Muslim' as Islamic regardless of whether or not it is actually religious.

it would be akin to me being described as a catholic anarchist because I would be percieved as being from a 'catholic background'.

 

[cesare]

Also that article seems to engage in the increasingly common cunts trick of conflating Islam with an ethnic background, so that groups like Neither Whores or Submissives are labelled Islamic feminism despite the fact there is nothing explicitly religious about the aims or principles of the organisation other than it was set up by women within what are considered 'Muslim communities'.

There are subtle yet substantial differences to be noted between the terms 'Islamic feminist', 'Muslim feminist' and those regarded as 'Islamists'. Islamic feminists ground their arguments in Islam and its teachings[39], seek the full equality of women and men in the personal and public sphere and can include non-Muslims in the discourse and debate. Differently, Muslim feminists are people who consider themselves Muslims and feminist but who may use arguments outside Islam, for example, national secular law or international human rights agreements, to counter gender inequality. Islamists are advocates of political Islam, the notion that the Quran and hadith mandate an Islamic government. Some Islamists advocate women's rights in the public sphere but do not challenge gender inequality in the personal, private sphere [40].

Note that any of the above can be men or women.

 

[revol68]

note the two categories are 1. those that take their arguments from Islam texts 2. those that consider themselves Muslim but will take their arguments from within and outside the Islamic tradition.

Do you see a major problem here, the absence of those from 'muslim backgrounds' whose feminism has nothing to do with Islam?

Once again people from Islamic countries or backgrounds are homogenised in such a manner as to exclude the possibility of those who make no recourse to Islam or who are in actual opposition to it.

 

[cesare]

note the two categories are 1. those that take their arguments from Islam texts 2. those that consider themselves Muslim but will take their arguments from within and outside the Islamic tradition.

Do you see a major problem here, the absence of those from 'muslim backgrounds' whose feminism has nothing to do with Islam?

Once again people from Islamic countries or backgrounds are homogenised in such a manner as to exclude the possibility of those who make no recourse to Islam or who are in actual opposition to it.

You just skim read it to the extent that you read it at all. You've even missed the third category now.

 

[revol68]

You just skim read it to the extent that you read it at all. You've even missed the third category now.

I read it all I didn't think i needed to comment on those that are mental Islamist feminists and believe in Islamic government, they are obviously a more fundamentalist subset of the first group who take their 'feminism' from Islamic teachings.