Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes you can, as i've just proved.
Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations
- Thread starter trashpony
- Start date
bimble
floofy
You've proved that it is possible not that I know how to do it. Anyway, andy kept defending the article. It's my job to say why?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
go on then, say why
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you're not doing your job
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I thought I'd made it quite clear - but obviously not clear enough - that I was referring to the original police reports, not to the shonky WSWS report you're obsessing about.
bimble
floofy
It's a shit job. Downs tools.you're not doing your job
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
maybe we can move on now then
andysays
Love and solidarity
So you keep saying, but I'm still waiting for you to point out specifically where and how you think I've said whatever it is I'm supposed to have have said, and you seem very unwilling to do so.
Rather than discuss with another poster whatever I alleged said, why not just post it up and then you can discuss it with me...
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
So your dismissing these hundreds of women's accounts of being raped robbed and assaulted on the basis some fascists wrote some stuff about goats and whore houses elsewhere on the Internet . As if fascists haven't been spreading lies and propaganda for over a fucking century now . Why not just call these hundreds of women liars on the basis of the protocols of the elders of Zion ?
The cologne assaults may not have actually happened because some fascists wrote some shit about something else entirely on the internet ? The cologne mass rapes may merely be a case of fascist propaganda...because fascists ...surprise surprise...engage in propaganda and lies ? That's what you want us to consider ?
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
And this debunks the cologne rapes how ?
Should we now start calling the cologne rapes a myth now, officially ? Would you like me to start referring to the cologne mass rapes as the fake mass rapes instead ? Is that what people should now do ? Reject this as a made up urban myth ? Made up by fascist sympathisers .
How about these women claiming to be victims of mass assault in face to face to face interviews claiming they did happen as stated ? Should we start insulting them on social media and openly call them out as liars ? Because their ..qute barefaced..lies and propaganda are quite hysterical if that's the case .
Have you any theories on how the fascists got them to go on television and make these stories up ? Or are they possibly fascists themselves ? Is it possible that leftist who saw through their lies at the very beginning and denounced one of them as a " lying nazi whore " fuelling a far right agenda against migrants was actually correct after all ? And has gotten a bad press for calling it right from the outset ?
You seem to be saying so , as do your mates here. Obviously the " whore " bit was totally out of order on grounds of gender based insults and political correctness, but the lying pro nazi bit seems to have been spot on bearing your theory in mind .
Ed...can we change the title of this thread please. It didn't happen . And these guys have now proven how it didn't . The article they posted almost proved it , but now this theory accompanying it pretty much proves it. It's fake, a total myth. Totally made up. And so was all this nonsense about a cover up. Nazis made that up too .
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
So...despite the fact around 1000 sexually aggressive north african foreigners attacked these women right in front of police, as well as similar mass assaults on women by hundreds of sexually aggressive foreigners acting in unison right across Germany the same night...it' shouldnt be the dominant part of the story ? Because despite the fact it actually happened..it's a " trope " .
What the fuck is the focus then ? How noisy the fire works were ? Hundreds of women were raped and abused in gang rampages ..in different cities...but their attackers should not be the focus of the story ? Because despite it actually happening ....it's a "trope" ? And The attackers must be ignored...not discussed...theyre not the story. The people who actually did all this should not be the focus of the story ?
What the fuck ? what the fucking fuck ?
And you have sought to downplay it . Repeatedly . Its took an age to drag this mangled, half arsed, meandering , and largely incoherent apologia out of you . You posted a link to an article that does precisely that , dismisses it as a conspiracy . And now this utter nonsense .
The people who did all this across Germany WERE sexually aggressive foreign young men , in large gangs acting in a co ordinated fashion. They DO pose a very real threat to women , whether western or migrant . And these large gangs of criminals have conpletely gotten away with it .They exist, that threat exists, it's not a fucking trope . Regardless of what shit the right are whipping up there is a very real threat and very real fears based on real stuff that has actually happened . Accepting it has happened and that the threat exists isn't acquiescing to a trope, it's acknowledging fucking reality . And people have an absolute and justified right to be extremely fucking angry about it . It's beyond unacceptable . That doesn't make anyone a racist, it's a perfectly normal and valid reaction to outrageous actions by thousands..literally thousands ...of no good, no mark cunts who've made ordinary peoples lives a complete misery and have ordinary people living in real, justified fear .
You and others aren't being bashed for being " left ", and you know full well you aren't . That's a disingenuous load of bollocks..to add to another pile . Your being verbally bashed for acting like complete wankers in response to this . and by response I mean comparing it to average nights out, dinner parties and Oktoberfest , abusing victims, writing shit articles dismissing it as conspiracy, decrying any justified anger as racism and xenophobia ...or leading migrant mobs through working class housing estates and shouting " narzi scum " at anyone who wont get off their own footpath .and having no answer other than lets have a few million more of these guys over..no limits..no borders..and then refusing to accept any responsibility for the repercussions. Namely..even bigger gangs, unsafe streets, closed borders, and the permanence of an empowered populist and far right you can do absolutely nothing about and have no political answer to . That's what you'd have us stuck with. Actually it is what were stuck with now . For seeming perpetuity .
That isn't even remotely left wing . It's just acting like politically tribal wankers refusing to accept reality and abusing anyone who does .
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
it's not intended to 'debunk' the victim accounts, as you perfectly well know.
What I actually said was, here's a bunch of clear evidence of hostile social media propaganda about refugees.
I've argued that in an emotionally charged context such as this one, it's important to pay close attention to evidence, especially given that it's clear that many fake stories are in circulation.
You lot have pretty consistently pulled this sort of shit (strawmanning, drama bombing, demands to condemn etc) whenever people want to pay attention to the evidence and try to separate it from propaganda, for a hundred odd pages now ...
What I actually said was, here's a bunch of clear evidence of hostile social media propaganda about refugees.
I've argued that in an emotionally charged context such as this one, it's important to pay close attention to evidence, especially given that it's clear that many fake stories are in circulation.
You lot have pretty consistently pulled this sort of shit (strawmanning, drama bombing, demands to condemn etc) whenever people want to pay attention to the evidence and try to separate it from propaganda, for a hundred odd pages now ...
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andysays
Love and solidarity
To give credit where it's due, CR has been way out in front of any one else with the hysterical lying and exaggeration and utter bullshit claims about what people have said on the thread. The numbers involved get bigger every time he posts, even within one post
If this doesn't perfectly illustrate the trope I've mentioned, I don't know what does.
Even his little gang of leftie-bashing fellow travellers seem to have abandoned him now, now that their xenophobia isn't semi-hidden but is explicitly and hatefully there for everyone to see.
The only way it could be clearer where he's coming from would be if his rants were used as sub-titles in that much-parodied scene from Downfall, except it's beyond parody now, he really means it.
Congratulations Casually Red, you've finally come clean and shown your true colours, and in the process illustrated perfectly how anti-migrant hysteria gets whipped up.
No further questions...
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
All that illustrates is that CR is given to a bit of hyperbole.
You don't say!
Who are they then?
I agree with the majority of your post to my enquiry yesterday and wouldn't seek to lump "the left" into one group. It's a very broad church and there are plenty of folk on the left who are wholly reasonable about what's happened here, yourself included, it would seem. However, the default of many on this website and others like it is to the extreme left where everything bad is caused by The West or The Right, and that's where the main thrust gets directed. Not to believing the claims or reporting (in this case) of the victims of mass assaults.
On the very first page of this thread it only took until post 6 for someone to posit a right wing conspiracy, and before page 3 for accusations of xenophobic reporting. Since then other articles have been posted which purport to be from a left perspective which quite clearly are still stuck in the 'right wing conspiracy/disbelieve the victims' rut, which, if not gaining traction here, have failed to attract condemnation and it's not unreasonable to question whether that constitutes tacit agreement.
On the substantive points of what actually happened and who did it, the position that you outlined yesterday is the same as Red's and Bimble's.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
good cos there weren't any questions in your post
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
I agree with you that fake stories have to be weeded out, however, after NYE in Cologne and elsewhere, and after the 10 year old raped at a swimming pool in Austria and the 19 year old female social worker stabbed to death at her workplace in Sweden, and the english girl raped in public in Paris, It really starts to look like a futile activity to mull over whether other minor stories are true or not. "This big one happened, but look, this little one with rodents or cats didn't." It gets us nowhere, it doesn't keep up with events.
Germany is now in political termoil because of attacks on middle class living standards and the reckless introduction of an enormous and unwieldly refugee crisis to the very doorsteps of most every town. As a result the left have done very badly in these elections and right wing populists have gone from 4% to up to 24%, only 2 years after founding their party.
40% of the Adf vote was from people who haven't voted for years, in other words, disenfranchized working class, who aren't being engaged by class politics by the organized left.
CR linked to an article in the New Statesmen which talks extensively about the psychology behind the attacks, which I recommend reading and maybe commenting on.
Slavoj Žižek: The Cologne attacks were an obscene version of carnival.
As for the "Trope" that Andysays has been concerned about. In normal quiet times this is a valid way of filtering, but after the above mentioned events it's just too dogmatic an approach to be of any practical use, and inevitably leads to the automatic and inflexible mistake of lumping together concerned citizens with fascists. The result being that whoever uses this Trope template can have no engagement with ordinary people over the issue. It leaves the field wide open to the far right.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Or more precisely it has done, and they've mushroomed pretty expansively . Its happened now . And they barely had to even try . Perfectly foreseeable too..im sure im not the only one whos pointed out the inevitable, foregone conclusion of whats happening .And no answer to it, bar shouting " narzi scum " at anyone who won't stick their head in the sand .
And it's not just in Germany this is happening . Populist and far right parties across Europe...France, Poland, Hungary, Czech republic, Slovakia.. will be sustained and empowered . That's the future we are looking at . Entrenched and embedded polarisation around this issue , and most particularly among the working class . Who, let's face it, just aren't " sexy " and " exotic " enough to be the current cause de jour. and they know it full well .
As regards the Zizek article any engagement on the points within is unlikely as to do so would entail recognition there's a serious problem with a significant element of young migrant males that needs to be addressed . A problem akin to fascism . Which itself has long been a nihilistic, hate driven political expression of gangsterism, thuggery , extreme anti social behaviour and organised crime .
Engagement from people who've spent this entire thread dismissing that, and roundly abusing anyone who says this problem exists , and has manifested itself explosively after assessing and recognising its strength , is highly unlikely.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well done on your role btw.
To a tee.
To a tee.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
To answer very serious accusations in brief the WSWS must be taken with a pinch of salt that much is true but that is entirely true for the Daily Express which has been painted by some as punching a hole through an iron tight conspiracy which the centre left press held to.
Here is the WSWS describing the "incident in Kiel. On Thursday, February 25, the local police reported on the “mass molestation” of three girls by 30 foreigners in a shopping centre. The media accepted this narrative uncritically and raged about a “mob” of Afghans, refugees and foreigners.
Four days later, the accusations proved to be groundless. Eyewitnesses contradict the claims of the police that mass molestations took place. Photos and videos allegedly made of the girls by young men were not discovered. Physical assaults had never been alleged from the outset."
Here is the Express reporting it "The gang, believed to be from Afghanistan, were filming the three youngsters aged 15, 16 and 17 on their mobile phones at the Sophienhof shopping centre in Kiel, northern Germany.
Anxious passers-by, who were concerned that the mob might attack someone, called police who scrambled to the scene.
But some police officers were left injured after they were attacked by some of the group who became violent.
Four men were arrested but three later released without charge."
And the photograph used with a white police officer and a group of five civilians with typically South Asian (not Afghan) skin colour
It seems largely cribbed from harder-rightist sources, one example FrontPage:
"The latest such multicultural enriching incident to create similar outrage occurred last Thursday in Kiel, a northern German city in Schleswig-Holstein, a state bordering Denmark. Three teenage girls, aged 15, 16 and 17, were visiting a central shopping mall, the Sophienhof, in “broad daylight” when two young Afghan asylum seekers, aged 19 and 26, began to follow and film them with their cell phones.
Evidently, the criminals then posted these films on their social networks with the result that more and more men came to a restaurant area of the Sophienhof in order to persecute, sneer at them and to frighten them,” reported the newspaper, Die Welt."
Now in fairness, the WSWS does make its own unsubstantiated inferences or claims. It states of the press in Germany: "However, the press is clearly being supplied with material from the police for their anti-immigrant propaganda." There is no 100%-absolute-fullproof evidence that cherrypicked and selective passing of police reports to the centre-right press in Germany has been going on, that's its own inference - putting 2+2 together - from what's been going on.
It's up to people to make up their own minds. I don't believe the wsws in germany is guilty of distorting facts, though its inferences are up to people to decide on by themselves.
When it reports the following on Berlin (where is has a fair number of people - not a complete microsect like in the UK, able to interview people) it is worth paying attention to
As a consequence of this policy, Denica, an eight-year-old from Bosnia with a heart condition, was transported from a refugee home in Berlin-Weißensee along with her father early in the morning in the middle of January. Her mother and her brother, who also has a heart condition, who were temporarily allowed to remain, decided to travel back to Bosnia as a consequence. The chance of survival of the children is extremely uncertain, according Gabi Mohr of the organization “Against Child Poverty.”
Another case concerns a disabled Bosnian woman and her children, who were deported directly from Lageso on February 15, where they had an appointment to clarify her hardship ruling. The despairing father remained behind.
On the same day, a total of 58 people were deported from the Berlin-Schönefeld airport. According to the senate internal administration there were already 207 deportations in January 2016, more than three times as many as the monthly average the previous year, in which a total of 806 asylum seekers were sent back during the entire year.
Syrians are also being deported ever since the Dublin agreement came back in force. Beckmann described the case of an 18-year-old: “He was, I believe, 17 years old when he came here with his family. The rest of the family had a residence permit. But he was deported to Hungary, because he gave his fingerprints in Hungary in August of last year. Absolutely inhumane!”
A disabled young man from Libya, paraplegic since the NATO allies bombarded the country in 2011 and a bomb exploded directly behind his back, is waiting in Lageso for his mother. She managed to escape the “Libyan hell of militias and mafia gangs,” he told the WSWS.
Here is the WSWS describing the "incident in Kiel. On Thursday, February 25, the local police reported on the “mass molestation” of three girls by 30 foreigners in a shopping centre. The media accepted this narrative uncritically and raged about a “mob” of Afghans, refugees and foreigners.
Four days later, the accusations proved to be groundless. Eyewitnesses contradict the claims of the police that mass molestations took place. Photos and videos allegedly made of the girls by young men were not discovered. Physical assaults had never been alleged from the outset."
Here is the Express reporting it "The gang, believed to be from Afghanistan, were filming the three youngsters aged 15, 16 and 17 on their mobile phones at the Sophienhof shopping centre in Kiel, northern Germany.
Anxious passers-by, who were concerned that the mob might attack someone, called police who scrambled to the scene.
But some police officers were left injured after they were attacked by some of the group who became violent.
Four men were arrested but three later released without charge."
And the photograph used with a white police officer and a group of five civilians with typically South Asian (not Afghan) skin colour
It seems largely cribbed from harder-rightist sources, one example FrontPage:
"The latest such multicultural enriching incident to create similar outrage occurred last Thursday in Kiel, a northern German city in Schleswig-Holstein, a state bordering Denmark. Three teenage girls, aged 15, 16 and 17, were visiting a central shopping mall, the Sophienhof, in “broad daylight” when two young Afghan asylum seekers, aged 19 and 26, began to follow and film them with their cell phones.
Evidently, the criminals then posted these films on their social networks with the result that more and more men came to a restaurant area of the Sophienhof in order to persecute, sneer at them and to frighten them,” reported the newspaper, Die Welt."
Now in fairness, the WSWS does make its own unsubstantiated inferences or claims. It states of the press in Germany: "However, the press is clearly being supplied with material from the police for their anti-immigrant propaganda." There is no 100%-absolute-fullproof evidence that cherrypicked and selective passing of police reports to the centre-right press in Germany has been going on, that's its own inference - putting 2+2 together - from what's been going on.
It's up to people to make up their own minds. I don't believe the wsws in germany is guilty of distorting facts, though its inferences are up to people to decide on by themselves.
When it reports the following on Berlin (where is has a fair number of people - not a complete microsect like in the UK, able to interview people) it is worth paying attention to
As a consequence of this policy, Denica, an eight-year-old from Bosnia with a heart condition, was transported from a refugee home in Berlin-Weißensee along with her father early in the morning in the middle of January. Her mother and her brother, who also has a heart condition, who were temporarily allowed to remain, decided to travel back to Bosnia as a consequence. The chance of survival of the children is extremely uncertain, according Gabi Mohr of the organization “Against Child Poverty.”
Another case concerns a disabled Bosnian woman and her children, who were deported directly from Lageso on February 15, where they had an appointment to clarify her hardship ruling. The despairing father remained behind.
On the same day, a total of 58 people were deported from the Berlin-Schönefeld airport. According to the senate internal administration there were already 207 deportations in January 2016, more than three times as many as the monthly average the previous year, in which a total of 806 asylum seekers were sent back during the entire year.
Syrians are also being deported ever since the Dublin agreement came back in force. Beckmann described the case of an 18-year-old: “He was, I believe, 17 years old when he came here with his family. The rest of the family had a residence permit. But he was deported to Hungary, because he gave his fingerprints in Hungary in August of last year. Absolutely inhumane!”
A disabled young man from Libya, paraplegic since the NATO allies bombarded the country in 2011 and a bomb exploded directly behind his back, is waiting in Lageso for his mother. She managed to escape the “Libyan hell of militias and mafia gangs,” he told the WSWS.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
It is strange that with such a thing happening in broad daylight no-one can produce a video of it, seeing how everyone whips out their mobiles to film anything nowadays. So, it is neither proved nor disproved, really but irrelevant due to lack of proof, unlike Cologne and elsewhere.
I witnessed an incident two weeks ago myself, but thought nothing of it at the time. It was at a train station in north eastern Spain. As people were getting on the train three Spanish girls (between 18 and 21 years old) began shouting their heads off at three very fashion conscious morrocan youths who had just got off the train. They were screaming at them because one of them had filmed the girls faces as he walked by and they were shocked by it.
Maybe, it's a new revolting trend.
I witnessed an incident two weeks ago myself, but thought nothing of it at the time. It was at a train station in north eastern Spain. As people were getting on the train three Spanish girls (between 18 and 21 years old) began shouting their heads off at three very fashion conscious morrocan youths who had just got off the train. They were screaming at them because one of them had filmed the girls faces as he walked by and they were shocked by it.
Maybe, it's a new revolting trend.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is a very interesting piece, the first two thirds anyway, not so much when they retreat in the anti-fascist arena, but even there it demonstrates that the german 80-90s anti-fascist tradition has taken on board much that anti-fascists here still haven't - that here it is often nearer the anti-racists talked about in the article:
Crisis and the Return to the Nation: Dismantling the Right Ecology in Germany
Crisis and the Return to the Nation: Dismantling the Right Ecology in Germany
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
A good point, particularly since the police *couldn't* really do anything about it because of the German rape laws. Must have been remarked on earlier in the thread that they're being changed now but at the time:
Germany tightening rape law in wake of Cologne assaults
For fucks sake!
This is not a question of legislation or politics (much as some idiots would want it to be so), it is a question of what is the right thing to do on a moral level and, if you take the view that this is immoral how do you mitigate it...?
This is not difficult stuff to understand.
This is not a question of legislation or politics (much as some idiots would want it to be so), it is a question of what is the right thing to do on a moral level and, if you take the view that this is immoral how do you mitigate it...?
This is not difficult stuff to understand.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Unbelievable. What a waste of time.
Is the law the central issue here?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
strange thing for a lawyer to ask
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Well yes if a woman goes to the police and says "I've been raped" and the police say "there's nothing we can do". I'm shaking my head in puzzlement if I'm having to say this to a solicitor.
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