HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[T & P]

There are no doubt alternative routes that could be taken, but they have already done what they can to increase capacity by doing things like upgrading signalling or adding more standard carriages to trains.
Tell me, what do you think can be done to increase capacity further on existing lines?

I wonder what the cost would have been if instead of setting on building an absurdly high 250 mph speed line, with its more complex signalling systems, higher curve radius & therefore fewer route options available, more expensive trainsets etc, they had chosen a more conventional 300 kph/ 191 mph project. Or even a 250 kph/ 155 mph capable railway line & trainset, which are common as much commercially and would still offer pretty decent journey times.

 

[alex_]

I wonder what the cost would have been if instead of setting on building an absurdly high 250 mph speed line, with its more complex signalling systems, higher curve radius & therefore fewer route options available, more expensive trainsets etc, they had chosen a more conventional 300 kph/ 191 mph project. Or even a 250 kph/ 155 mph capable railway line & trainset, which are common as much commercially and would still offer pretty decent journey times.

Bearing in mind they are building something which will likely still be used in 200 years - it seems like itd be something future generations would regret.

 

[BigTom]

I wonder what the cost would have been if instead of setting on building an absurdly high 250 mph speed line, with its more complex signalling systems, higher curve radius & therefore fewer route options available, more expensive trainsets etc, they had chosen a more conventional 300 kph/ 191 mph project. Or even a 250 kph/ 155 mph capable railway line & trainset, which are common as much commercially and would still offer pretty decent journey times.

Yes, I would be interested to know this - if it's not going beyond Birmingham then why not have the current high speed trains on new lines connecting more places (Milton Keynes especially) into that capacity, and/or a different route that might have reduced the amount of issues with the current one.
I have absolutely no idea about any of this though.

 

[BigTom]

a


I couldn't be arsed to look into it because of your aggressive style of reply and went for the infuriate you further approach.

I'm not a train expert, but have heard of reopening of lines often, in fact, it is often mentioned around the Midlands. I'm sure you can find articles if you google for it. Tons of priorties here Re-opening rail lines (not put much effort into validating any of this - go for it though)

So the first one mentioned on that site for the West Midlands is the Camp Hill Line, which I mentioned in an earlier post.

Now this line still exists but is only used for freight. The passenger stations in Birmingham closed a long time ago. There has been decades of trying to get the bordseley chord built which have got nowhere. This chord would allow the line to connect into Moor street rather than New street.

But nobody has been able to raise the iirc £250m that would be needed to build the chord. What TfWM have been able to do recently is find a way get one slot an hour into new street, re-open the stations, sink some cost into that and prove there is demand which might - might - help get the chord built. Cancelling HS2 wouldn't get it built because it was never on the cards to happen. Nobody is saying we don't need this because of HS2 and the failure to raise the money for it has been going on for way longer than HS2 has been planned.

Realistically, the only way we get more trains on that line is by removing pressure on New Street train station. The way we do that is by building HS2 and taking the long distance WCML fast trains out of New Street, opening up space for local trains.
This is also true for lots of the other local services that run into new street. The only other line in Birmingham mentioned on that site is Longbridge-Frankley which would connect into a line that runs into new street. Adding an extra service onto that line can only happen if pressure on New Street is reduced... which means HS2. I don't know the others. Stourbridge-Dudley-Walsall might connect through new street but I suspect they would mention it if it did.

Of course if we had a time machine and could go back to the 90s (iirc) when Birmingham City Council made the stupid decision to sell the old bullring land to build the new bullring shopping centre instead of building grand central station that would have combined new street and moor street. That's not possible now.

 

[cybershot]

So the first one mentioned on that site for the West Midlands is the Camp Hill Line, which I mentioned in an earlier post.

Now this line still exists but is only used for freight. The passenger stations in Birmingham closed a long time ago. There has been decades of trying to get the bordseley chord built which have got nowhere. This chord would allow the line to connect into Moor street rather than New street.

But nobody has been able to raise the iirc £250m that would be needed to build the chord. What TfWM have been able to do recently is find a way get one slot an hour into new street, re-open the stations, sink some cost into that and prove there is demand which might - might - help get the chord built. Cancelling HS2 wouldn't get it built because it was never on the cards to happen. Nobody is saying we don't need this because of HS2 and the failure to raise the money for it has been going on for way longer than HS2 has been planned.

Realistically, the only way we get more trains on that line is by removing pressure on New Street train station. The way we do that is by building HS2 and taking the long distance WCML fast trains out of New Street, opening up space for local trains.
This is also true for lots of the other local services that run into new street. The only other line in Birmingham mentioned on that site is Longbridge-Frankley which would connect into a line that runs into new street. Adding an extra service onto that line can only happen if pressure on New Street is reduced... which means HS2. I don't know the others. Stourbridge-Dudley-Walsall might connect through new street but I suspect they would mention it if it did.

Of course if we had a time machine and could go back to the 90s (iirc) when Birmingham City Council made the stupid decision to sell the old bullring land to build the new bullring shopping centre instead of building grand central station that would have combined new street and moor street. That's not possible now.

Informative useful reply.

 

[davesgcr]

So the first one mentioned on that site for the West Midlands is the Camp Hill Line, which I mentioned in an earlier post.

Now this line still exists but is only used for freight. The passenger stations in Birmingham closed a long time ago. There has been decades of trying to get the bordseley chord built which have got nowhere. This chord would allow the line to connect into Moor street rather than New street.

But nobody has been able to raise the iirc £250m that would be needed to build the chord. What TfWM have been able to do recently is find a way get one slot an hour into new street, re-open the stations, sink some cost into that and prove there is demand which might - might - help get the chord built. Cancelling HS2 wouldn't get it built because it was never on the cards to happen. Nobody is saying we don't need this because of HS2 and the failure to raise the money for it has been going on for way longer than HS2 has been planned.

Realistically, the only way we get more trains on that line is by removing pressure on New Street train station. The way we do that is by building HS2 and taking the long distance WCML fast trains out of New Street, opening up space for local trains.
This is also true for lots of the other local services that run into new street. The only other line in Birmingham mentioned on that site is Longbridge-Frankley which would connect into a line that runs into new street. Adding an extra service onto that line can only happen if pressure on New Street is reduced... which means HS2. I don't know the others. Stourbridge-Dudley-Walsall might connect through new street but I suspect they would mention it if it did.

Of course if we had a time machine and could go back to the 90s (iirc) when Birmingham City Council made the stupid decision to sell the old bullring land to build the new bullring shopping centre instead of building grand central station that would have combined new street and moor street. That's not possible now.

Lurking in the background and not really wanting to engage , but the comments on "a start" for the Camp Hill line is on the cards. Without going into too much detail , if the present Cross City line stays at 4 tph all day (vice 6 tph) - 2 slots are made available for this service which relieves one of the busiest bus lines in the south of the city. In a previous life - I was able to get support for the extension of Cross City to Bromsgrove as an electric route and also for Walsall to Rugely Trent Valley as an electric service. All good stuff.

I mentioned the serious grief on getting the "compromise" West Coast Main line timetable specified - where did we start on the 400 mile + route - well the 2 track Coventry to New St section and worked forward to Rugby and basically lined the fast services to run them like fast bowls down the "alley" towards Euston. A heck of a lot of graft involved - and the 2004 timetable , and the further "polish" for 2008 held the line up till pre-Covid.

HS2 provides massive opportunities for local and semi-fast services right the way down the line towards Crewe via Milton Keynes and beyond.

Not forgetting freight - where the present limitations for most of the day are 2 75 mph and one 60 mph path - serving in particular the vast quantities of container trains coming in from Thameside and East Anglia. We all like freight don't we.?

I will sign off with relief on nobody as yet mentioned re-opening the lost Great Central routes and especially Manchester - Sheffield (aka the Woodhead Route)

Just to prove it was not just the WCML I dabbled with - consider the "Connecting Communities" report of April 2007 where ATOC looked at a very wide range of line re-openings , - quantified and costed broadly rather than nostalgically connecting up closed lines on a map. Plenty of people around who relish these things.

 

[davesgcr]

"Briefing Room" on Radio 4 - found by accident just now - has an excellent report on HS2 ........(pick up on BBC Sounds)

Covers the pros and cons , very well IMHO.

 

[Teaboy]

In levelling up news...

HS2 rail extension to Leeds set to be scrapped

Plans to extend the eastern leg of the high speed network will be ditched in favour of new shorter links.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[T & P]

The project gets to be better value for money by the week. What's the betting that HS2 will never reach Scotland, and we'll end up with the most expensive railway project in the history of mankind for a total route length of 165-odd miles?

 

[Teaboy]

This is why I felt the Northern sections should have been built first. If for no other reason than it would mean they actually got built and not shelved which inevitably has happened.

 

[Dogsauce]

They’re spinning it as ‘three new high speed lines’ which is basically the bit from Crewe to Manchester, and the two remaining stubs of the Eastern leg. If they built the eastern stage in full it would have been only one high speed line, but by chopping out most of the middle we now get two high speed lines. Aren’t we lucky?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

In levelling up news...

HS2 rail extension to Leeds set to be scrapped

Plans to extend the eastern leg of the high speed network will be ditched in favour of new shorter links.

www.bbc.co.uk

Shocked I tell thee. How did no one see that coming

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Just another day on normal island.

 

[alex_]

one of the crappest aspects of hs2 is that the northern bit is last, and therefore more likely to be cancelled or down specified.

Posted in summer 2019

 

[T & P]

Northern newspapers Group not impressed...

 

[Artaxerxes]

What an absolute fucking shit show this entire lines saga has been.

 

[platinumsage]

 

[Chilli.s]

Can't say they weren't warned. Not a difficult lesson though, never trust a tory.

 

[Chilli.s]

That Grant Shapps, full of shit. Whoever believes a word that comes out of his gob is just a mug. He certainly doesn't believe in leveling up the north, unless that's leveling up tory votes

 

[cybershot]

Still going to plough through my local country park. What’s funny is though suddenly local residents who have been against the thing from the start and the local councillors think there’s a chance of a local station and suddenly it’s a great idea. Somehow I don’t think trains going to the East Midlands hub from Birmingham are going to stop off at a little village on the way.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Various MPs from those constituencies were praising this yesterday, being Tory they could not see past the 'no stop in my constituency, therefore no benefit to ME' - wholly unable to see that any benefit for the region would be a benefit for them too.

 

[Edie]

Fuck them. Fuck how much money is invested in London and the South. Fuck all the arts, the free museums, the investment in transport, the better schools.

 

[teuchter]

Fuck them. Fuck how much money is invested in London and the South. Fuck all the arts, the free museums, the investment in transport, the better schools.

London’s transport faces a future of “managed decline”

TfL is warning that without a solid long term funding agreement from the government, it will be forced to start cutting services within months and look at running the public transport network under a programme of

www.ianvisits.co.uk

 

[Teaboy]

Its been obvious since the words started getting bandied around that very few if any Tory MP's believe in a Northern Powerhouse or levelling up. They simply don't give a fuck about anywhere apart from London and wherever their 3rd and 4th homes are.

This being said I'm guessing* that a huge amount of people in the North who voted tory last out were under any illusions that Johnson and his mates did give a fuck. The election was about something different.


* Its only a guess as I live in the South East and I don't vote tory.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Newsthump


The government has defended its decision to scrap the East Midlands to Leeds HS2 rail link today after admitting that they actually thought Leeds was in Manchester when the initial plans were agreed.

With news emerging this morning that the high-speed rail line will not now go to Leeds, senior government ministers have apologised, claiming it would never have agreed to the deal in the first place if it knew that Leeds was actually not in Manchester.

Defending the decision earlier Grant Shapps revealed, “Yes it’s a bit embarrassing really. And you’re all quite sure it’s not in Manchester?

“I mean obviously we want to make it look like we give the slightest shit about the north, and that’s why we said we would give you a train line.

“But we didn’t expect it to have to go all over the place, and cost us a bloody fortune, with money we could spend down south.

“We just thought Leeds was in Manchester and that way we would kill two birds with one stone and say it was going to two places, to keep all those stupid northerners happy.

“Obviously Liverpool and Sheffield are already next to each other so they don’t need any money, and I don’t think there are any more cities up there from what I hear, I’m fucked if I’m going near the place.”

Asked to comment on the move, local resident Simon Williams from Leeds told us, “Disgusting. We have been betrayed once again by this government who have proved they are not fit to lead a country.

“I’m so annoyed I’m only prepared to give them one more chance at the next general election.”

 

[Edie]

Leeds is taking this personally btw

 

[SpookyFrank]

Bearing in mind they are building something which will likely still be used in 200 years - it seems like itd be something future generations would regret.

This is a good point. In the future Birmingham and London could be much further apart.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Leeds is taking this personally btw

You could say that about literally anything that's ever happened though.

 

[alex_]

This is a good point. In the future Birmingham and London could be much further apart.

Yes - tectonic plates are continually moving

 

[T & P]