HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[Sprocket.]

Wonder what the overall cost and waste is/will be.

My great -nephew who lived on the proposed route through the Dearne Valley was paid out for his five year old house two years ago. He got much more than the house was worth and moved into a mansion compared to his previous property. Should we as tax payers now own the hastily purchased properties?

 

[alex_]

They could buy every household an electric vehicle.

Would you be able to drive to central London in an hour on it ?

 

[Cid]

Would you be able to drive to central London in an hour on it ?

This is contingent on actually living in Birmingham. Most of the country doesn't.

 

[Sprocket.]

Would you be able to drive to central London in an hour on it ?

No, but it might reduce the use of fossil fuel.

 

[Cid]

I think the thing for me is that these eye-watering amounts of money are of the order that you can actually look at why these journeys are being made and how they might be reduced. Especially in the light of the last year... And you cut those journeys, you also cut the need/desire to make the same journey by car.

 

[alex_]

My great -nephew who lived on the proposed route through the Dearne Valley was paid out for his five year old house two years ago. He got much more than the house was worth and moved into a mansion compared to his previous property. Should we as tax payers now own the hastily purchased properties?

I expect we are going to find that not building a railway to Leeds costs about 5 billion quid.

 

[teuchter]

They could buy every household an electric vehicle.

And they'll last 200 years.

 

[Sprocket.]

And they'll last 200 years.

More than the human race the way things are looking.

 

[BigTom]

They could buy every household an electric vehicle.

27.8million households. Families and households in the UK - Office for National Statistics

£112bn is about £4,000 per household.

Nowhere near enough for an electric car, and wouldn't solve the problems HS2 is trying to solve anyway.

 

[Sprocket.]

27.8million households. Families and households in the UK - Office for National Statistics

£112bn is about £4,000 per household.

Nowhere near enough for an electric car, and wouldn't solve the problems HS2 is trying to solve anyway.

I was joking, I’d rather have the Trident upgrade to bomb non existent enemies.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I expect we are going to find that not building a railway to Leeds costs about 5 billion quid.

You can't put a price on not going to Leeds.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I expect we are going to find that not building a railway to Leeds costs about 5 billion quid.

Worth every penny.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Nowhere near enough for an electric car, and wouldn't solve the problems HS2 is trying to solve anyway.

What problem is that? How to spunk £200 Billion on something only rich cunts will be able to afford to use?

 

[BigTom]

What problem is that? How to spunk £200 Billion on something only rich cunts will be able to afford to use?

The problems are:
1) The current huge issue with capacity on the WCML. You can't solve this with more cars because there's no road capacity either.

2) Similar capacity issues on the local and regional West Midlands network (I don't know about the London end of things).

For instance, where I live they've wanted to reopen a train line for passengers for years (Camp Hill line for those who know) but the line runs into new street station.

They haven't been able to raise the money to build a connection to bring it into Moor Street but have been able to find a way to get one train an hour into new street and re open the stations.

HS2 will free up/create a load of slots in New street and might allow this line to have more trains per hour running. There are loads and loads of places like this in Birmingham that are bottlenecked by New Street station so I've no idea where might get what.

On routes which are not bottlenecked by New Street but will get more capacity from HS2, you can run more trains per hour because you have fewer trains running at different speeds.

Again, there's no road capacity to add more cars into.

3) The need to provide a form of transport that can replace short haul flights. HS2 to Birmingham only won't do anything much for this and really you'd want a direct connection to the continent but this would/could be a step towards a larger British high speed network which would.

As far as prices go, HS2 will replace the current high speed trains, allowing more local stopping trains in the existing network so we know what this service is. With the political need for HS2 to be a success, I don't expect to see ticket prices much higher (if any higher) than the current ones for Birmingham to Euston on Virgin or cross country or whoever currently has that franchise.

Perhaps first class walk ups will take a hike in price or something like that but standard advance fares? I don't see it.

For people who already use the fast train from New street or international it's a few minutes saved, for everyone else who previously had a direct connection, it's a longer journey. There is no extra value to HS2 from a West Midlands to London passenger point of view, the benefits to passengers will be felt in the local/regional journeys we make, which people won't connect to HS2.


The demand for the Bham to London journey exists, massively. The politics dictates HS2 needs to be a success. The market already has a price it will bear that brings success. They won't risk moving far from that price. These trains will be well used.

 

[Dogsauce]

There’s also a massive increase in capacity on these trains, many more seats to fill. They’re not going to do that by putting the price up!

Arguing with certain anti-HS2 viewpoints is like taking on anti-vaxxers, the same absence of facts/knowledge. Facebook is full of bollocks about it being ‘a rich man’s toy’ etc. Fortunately such views aren’t killing people, except perhaps adding a few more road casualties further down the line if it does get partially canned.

 

[Teaboy]

There ain't half some funny comments on this thread.

Do people walk past massive new housing developments muttering 'you could buy everyone in the country a tent for that money'?

 

[Badgers]

There ain't half some funny comments on this thread.

Do people walk past massive new housing developments muttering 'you could buy everyone in the country a tent for that money'?

Yes

 

[Cid]

There ain't half some funny comments on this thread.

Do people walk past massive new housing developments muttering 'you could buy everyone in the country a tent for that money'?

Er… do you walk past massive housing developments and think ‘this is absolutely fine and I’m sure totally unproblematic’?

 

[Badgers]

Mostly I sigh as most new builds get brought by investors while endless properties sit empty. Then I frown at the loss of green space and wonder if the local road infrastructure will be improved.

 

[Teaboy]

Er… do you walk past massive housing developments and think ‘this is absolutely fine and I’m sure totally unproblematic’?

Everything humans do is problematic do what degree or another. People need somewhere to live and our country has been built on housing and infrastructure.

HS2 is stupidly expensive and some terrible decisions have been made along the way but its going to be here for a very long time and will be of benefit for long into the future.

Its happening and we may as well try and see the positives as alien a concept as that is to this place.

 

[Cid]

Everything humans do is problematic do what degree or another. People need somewhere to live and our country has been built on housing and infrastructure.

HS2 is stupidly expensive and some terrible decisions have been made along the way but its going to be here for a very long time and will be of benefit for long into the future.

Its happening and we may as well try and see the positives as alien a concept as that is to this place.

Sure, but walk past a housing development and what you’re seeing is investment in property and continual move to that model. Those interests becoming more and more entrenched and making projects like wider rollouts of HS rail less and less viable.

I would love to see a full rollout of HS rail in this country. But honestly the way this is playing out casts Birmingham as the next big thing in commuting. I’m sure you will see plenty of said housing developments popping up around the new station. I want to see fewer, shorter commutes… refocus of our systems of work. HS2 seems more like a plaster over a massive wound. A very good plaster, one of those Elastoplast fabric ones that has images of extreme sports on the front. But it was expensive and frankly I’m still bleeding out here. This is not a metaphor, please send help.

 

[Elpenor]

HS2 has been missold to the public and media as being about speed when it’s about capacity.

Sadly it’s a fact that infrastructure projects often need to be tied in with property developments in order to make the numbers add up - see Crossrail Woolwich station, Canary Wharf and DLR etc

 

[BigTom]

HS2 has been missold to the public and media as being about speed when it’s about capacity.

Sadly it’s a fact that infrastructure projects often need to be tied in with property developments in order to make the numbers add up - see Crossrail Woolwich station, Canary Wharf and DLR etc

Birmingham Interchange is like this, loads of housing and commercial/logistics/industrial space being developed around the station.

 

[Saul Goodman]

There’s also a massive increase in capacity on these trains, many more seats to fill. They’re not going to do that by putting the price up!

Arguing with certain anti-HS2 viewpoints is like taking on anti-vaxxers, the same absence of facts/knowledge. Facebook is full of bollocks about it being ‘a rich man’s toy’ etc. Fortunately such views aren’t killing people, except perhaps adding a few more road casualties further down the line if it does get partially canned.

But trains are only for people with money. Or are you saying this one will be affordable?

 

[teuchter]

Arguing with certain anti-HS2 viewpoints is like taking on anti-vaxxers, the same absence of facts/knowledge. Facebook is full of bollocks about it being ‘a rich man’s toy’ etc. Fortunately such views aren’t killing people, except perhaps adding a few more road casualties further down the line if it does get partially canned.

^^this!

Same stupid objections keep being repeated on this thread despite several people taking time to try and explain what HS2 is all about and why the supposed alternative solutions don't work.

 

[teuchter]

And this thread is a good example of attempts to have a useful discussion being hindered by Saul Goodman s boringly repetitive bad faith carpet-bombing. Let's have a vote to throw him out of the transport forum.

 

[Saul Goodman]

And this thread is a good example of attempts to have a useful discussion being hindered by Saul Goodman s boringly repetitive bad faith carpet-bombing. Let's have a vote to throw him out of the transport forum.

Fuck off you sad excuse for a human being.

 

[alex_]

Sadly it’s a fact that infrastructure projects often need to be tied in with property developments in order to make the numbers add up - see Crossrail Woolwich station, Canary Wharf and DLR etc

I suspect it’s easiest to do this - as it makes the business case easier to write and defend

 

[Cid]

^^this!

Same stupid objections keep being repeated on this thread despite several people taking time to try and explain what HS2 is all about and why the supposed alternative solutions don't work.

It's a solution to a particular problem. Capacity on existing routes between London and Birmingham isn't sufficient, more is needed. Fine. And if that's all you want, if your objective in building new infrastructure is just to make the same old systems in one quite specific area viable for the next 50 years, it'll do that.

To me it says that we can't do national infrastructure planning anymore. That the combination of property values, difficulty in negotiations, public will etc has essentially ruled out a nationwide HS rail network for the foreseeable. If we want public transport to be the main option within the next few decades, it paints a pretty fucking bleak picture.

I kind of fall down on 'well why the fuck not?' at this point. I mean great, people will make bank developing that bit of Brum, the wheels of capital will keep spinning. It'll be expensive as shit <the project costs>, but I suppose someone modelled that. I'd like to think it will reduce use of the M1, but suspect that capacity will be filled, for that is the law of roads.

But yeah, I think that £80-fuck knows billion might have been better spent on how we do work in general. Why exactly we want hundreds of thousands of people travelling between London and Birmingham every day.

 

[alex_]

But yeah, I think that £80-fuck knows billion might have been better spent on how we do work in general. Why exactly we want hundreds of thousands of people travelling between London and Birmingham every day.

It frees capacity everywhere close to where it goes - by adding new fast lines, which mean the old fast lines can be used for local travel.

Alex