How would you like to see school education changed?

[ska invita]

As theres a lot of chat on the school restarting thread thought there might be need for a seperate thread. Sorry I dont have anything to add myself. Crucial topic, especially on a Social Reproduction level <i.e. " the structures and activities that transmit social inequality from one generation to the next "

 

[chilango]

I have lots, obviously. But to avoid monopolising the discussion, I will wait and respond to others.

 

[LDC]

Can it be properly reconfigured in isolation from society also being restructured though? Or do you mean within the current system?

 

[ska invita]

Can it be properly reconfigured in isolation from society also being restructured though? Or do you mean within the current system?

True, theres wishlist revolutionary stuff, and theres short term practical, and areas in between.

Then theres the core state level education, which rests on political will > parliamentary politics >pressure from teachers unions etc. (I dont know who decides curriculum or how the process happens)
But according to some futurologists in the US especially there is a drive to home schooling/bypassing the state/further gutting of state education system, a process which Covid19 crisis is accelerating, perhaps. Where the US leads the UK will follow I fear

Massive topic really.

 

[purenarcotic]

Not an enormously specific point but I would love to see the concept of what is educational broadened out. It has really frustrated me seeing so many parents stressing that they’ve not done anything ‘educational’ with their kid that day and then list a long thing of activities they’ve done which all contribute to learning and development (baking involves maths with weighing out / gardening is learning how to look after nature / playing footy in the garden is physical exercise and develops motor skills and coordination etc). Learning how to change a light bulb or how to clean the bathroom or whatever are really valuable life skills. It has thoroughly depressed me that we have such a narrow concept of what counts as useful learning.

 

[chilango]

Some initial thoughts in no particular order off the top of my head...

1/ Abolition of private schools. I'm torn between reappropriation and actual, physical, destruction. Seriously, I fear they'd, even as State schools become a magnet for the m/c and as long as they still stand they could potentially be reopened.

2/ Abolition of student fees.

3/ Abolition of parental choice. You go to your local comp. That's it.

4/ Abolition of examinations as method of assessment. Summative assessment in general really deemphasized and formative assessment prioritized.

5/ Lifelong free access to education supported by ubi. If someone wants to spend their life as a student on a grand a month for ever, great. One condition. Research etc. produced made freely available to all.

6/ workplace creches. Remove the for profit early years sector.

7/ League tables prohibited.

8/ Oxbridge - see private schools.

9/ Quota for privately educated employees in any business or institutions capped at 5%.

10/ abolition of streaming

 

[Thora]

Early Years/Nursery being extended to include what is currently Reception and Year 1 with formal education beginning in what is now Year 2 (age 6).

 

[8ball]

I remember feeling very put out when they took nearly all the toys away when I got to being five.
So more toys.

 

[planetgeli]

The idea that their is no alternative, or workable alternative, kinda mooted in the other thread by Shippou-Sensei , is laughable and wrong. It's not like we (UK) have always done it this way or that other countries don't do things differently.

There is so much that can be said but I'm not going to even attempt to put it all in one post. I'll start with some basics. Thora said start formal education at 6. I'd go one year further and start at 7. I was at school a long time ago as a pupil but even then I always had the idea so much time was wasted and we were forced into formal education too early. Britain is one of the earliest starters in the world. Finland starts at 7 and has one of the best education systems in the world.

Those pre-school years don't have to be idle, but they certainly don't have to be formed by putting a pen in a five year old's hand and telling them to do sums. Again, in Finland, much emphasis is put on creative play for these ages. Learning how to socialise, learning how to adapt to their environment.

We test too much. I think we may formally test more than almost any other nation. There is no need for this. Get rid of all formalised testing. Train teachers to an exceedingly high level so we can rely on their expertise to summarise a child's development. That will tell you more than any pen and paper test every year or two that is largely based on memory.

Stop teaching subjects in abstract, isolated terms like separate units that have nothing to do with the other separate units they learn. Teach by topic and by theme. Engage the kids. Give them a voice in the topics and the themes. If they walk into a class that has to some degree been chosen by them they are far more likely to engage than in a cold topic of 'Maths' or 'History'. See Donaldson. See phenomenon-based learning.

Treat vocational education with the same importance as academic qualifications. Teach it alongside the curriculum. Start proper vocational based training and education at 14. Involve outside agencies and employers. From that age. Bring back proper apprenticeships. Give them status. Let that vocational based education count just as much as formal academic education by providing higher education establishments that recognise this and allow students to specialise and be professional. Don't just chuck kids into 'college' without really meaning it. Make those colleges have the same status as any other higher education establishment.

Stop testing. Give kids a voice. Give them a chance to engage. Appreciate all skills equally.

 

[8ball]

There is so much that can be said but I'm not going to even attempt to put it all in one post. I'll start with some basics. Thora said start formal education at 6. I'd go one year further and start at 7. I was at school a long time ago as a pupil but even then I always had the idea so much time was wasted and we were forced into formal education too early. Britain is one of the earliest starters in the world. Finland starts at 7 and has one of the best education systems in the world.

Though how much of that difference is down to starting age is total guesswork - I believe there are more differences than just that.
Re: the time wasted -yeah - the main reason for schools is containment so that can't be a surprise.

 

[8ball]

Also, just on the "starting formal education" thing. Are you assuming "informal" education up til 7? I remember we learned a lot in nursery - it just didn't feel regimented. Then there's whether the point of that regimentation is really anything to do with education...

 

[planetgeli]

Though how much of that difference is down to starting age is total guesswork - I believe there are more differences than just that.

Yes. Hence the rest of my post.

Also, just on the "starting formal education" thing. Are you assuming "informal" education up til 7?

I'm not saying no 'what is recognised as' education up to 7. I'm saying a lot more emphasis on play, holistic growth and development, understanding the importance of play in wellbeing and learning.

 

[8ball]

I'm not saying no 'what is recognised as' education up to 7. I'm saying a lot more emphasis on play, holistic growth and development, understanding the importance of play in wellbeing and learning.

So sitting in rows at desks is delayed for at least a bit, and the toys stay. This is pretty much exactly my stance, too.

 

[platinumsage]

Some initial thoughts in no particular order off the top of my head...

1/ Abolition of private schools. I'm torn between reappropriation and actual, physical, destruction. Seriously, I fear they'd, even as State schools become a magnet for the m/c and as long as they still stand they could potentially be reopened.

2/ Abolition of student fees.

3/ Abolition of parental choice. You go to your local comp. That's it.

4/ Abolition of examinations as method of assessment. Summative assessment in general really deemphasized and formative assessment prioritized.

5/ Lifelong free access to education supported by ubi. If someone wants to spend their life as a student on a grand a month for ever, great. One condition. Research etc. produced made freely available to all.

6/ workplace creches. Remove the for profit early years sector.

7/ League tables prohibited.

8/ Oxbridge - see private schools.

9/ Quota for privately educated employees in any business or institutions capped at 5%.

10/ abolition of streaming

“Going to your local comp” - you know former private schoolers and other wealthy parents would just buy up all the housing around certain schools. I suppose you could have random ballots, but then with kids not going to the nearest school, travel would be a nightmare.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

The idea that their is no alternative, or workable alternative, kinda mooted in the other thread by Shippou-Sensei , is laughable and wrong. It's not like we (UK) have always done it this way or that other countries don't do things differently.

That's a bit of a misrepresentation. I didn't say that there were no alternatives. I even posted my ideas about alternatives.

What I did ask was for people to actually say what they think the alternative should be. I also do think it will be difficult as I think people tend to be conservative about education but difficult is not the same as impossible.

 

[planetgeli]

That's a bit of a misrepresentation. I didn't say that there were no alternatives. I even posted my ideas about alternatives.

What I did ask was for people to actually say what they think the alternative should be. I also do think it will be difficult as I think people tend to be conservative about education but difficult is not the same as impossible.

I did say 'kinda' in an effort to not totally misrepresent you. I'm sorry if I still have.

One thing you did say though, that I do take issue with, is

if we push any particular vocational training we will probably end up flooding that market.

Which I don't think evidence bears out. Finland pushes hard on VET (vocational education and training) and yet still has a shortage of plumbers etc, something they are still trying to solve.

 

[chilango]

“Going to your local comp” - you know former private schoolers and other wealthy parents would just buy up all the housing around certain schools. I suppose you could have random ballots, but then with kids not going to the nearest school, travel would be a nightmare.

Yep. In isolation you would. Not a reason not to it though.

But, in combination with other measures removing the market and competition (e.g. League tables for starters) "getting into a good school" would be less of thing.

 

[planetgeli]

There's tons more I could add. It goes without saying I hope that I don't believe in private education and we could do away with that tomorrow. On top of all this though we need cooperation between all education and training systems and establishments and an emphasis on learning as a continuous process throughout life.

Not this Tory bollocks of 'you only get one chance at education, get those kids in school now'.

 

[NoXion]

I think we should utterly destroy the idea that you either pass your exams at a certain age, or else your prospects are ruined forever henceforth. Fuck that. If you want to re-sit any exam at any age, then I think you should be able to do that, along with the necessary support for effective revision. After all, the point of an examination is to test one's understanding of a subject, yes? It's not supposed to be some kind of time-limited prize-draw, right? Failing an exam for the first time should never be seen as a failure or a disaster, it should instead be seen as highlighting the need for a different approach, more time to study and comprehend, that kind of thing.

Doing that should also eliminate the need to push bullshit coursework on every student.

Get rid of homework too. If your pedagogical methods cannot be effective within 6-8 hours spent every weekday for most of the year, then your pedagogical methods are utter dogshit and you should change them. Homework doesn't even have the "prepping you for adult life" excuse. I have never, ever had any of my bosses tell me to take my work home with me and do it during my precious home-time. Not once. No pedagogical or socialisation-type justification whatsoever. So get rid.

Bring back life-long learning. I think it should be made much, much easier for people to re-enter education at a later stage in life. This should also apply to the more practical vocational types of education, as well as the more traditionally academic stuff.

Not sure if it's on-topic, but better pay and conditions for apprentices should also be a thing. It's an absolute pisstake that they currently get paid so little, and how the fuck is someone supposed to change careers when it's like that? The current setup is clearly intended to exploit young people just entering the workforce.

 

[xenon]

“Going to your local comp” - you know former private schoolers and other wealthy parents would just buy up all the housing around certain schools. I suppose you could have random ballots, but then with kids not going to the nearest school, travel would be a nightmare.

I can't buy this idea that wealthy people would buy up all the property in desirable areas. What a crazy notion...

 

[mx wcfc]

One idea that is discussed periodically, and then swept back under the carpet again is the idea of moving the start of the school day for teenagers to, say, 11.00 am. I'm no expert in these things, but I've seen lots in the media about how teenagers brains just don't work properly at 8.30 in the morning.

 

[mx wcfc]

I can't buy this idea that wealthy people would buy up all the property in desirable areas. What a crazy notion...

Was it Brighton that used a lottery to determine which school kids went to, as a result of middle class parents buying all the housing in the "best" catchment areas?

 

[ska invita]

In the USA they have junior high and some other school I can't remember the name of. I think this is a good idea, secondary school for ages 11-18 is too big in a massive 1000± student comps.

Dividing up 11-14 and 15-18 is better, unless the school is already small.

 

[mx wcfc]

In the USA they have junior high and some other school I can't remember the name of. I think this is a good idea, secondary school for ages 11-18 is too big in a massive 1000± student comps.

Dividing up 11-14 and 15-18 is better, unless the school is already small.

Round here we do that (nearly). School till GCSE's, sixth form college for A levels. It works well. I'm baffled that this isn't the case everywhere in the UK already.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I did say 'kinda' in an effort to not totally misrepresent you. I'm sorry if I still have.

One thing you did say though, that I do take issue with, is

if we push any particular vocational training we will probably end up flooding that market.

Which I don't think evidence bears out. Finland pushes hard on VET (vocational education and training) and yet still has a shortage of plumbers etc, something they are still trying to solve.

Probably is too strong a word. I'd still say that we risk flooding the market if we just push one or two main areas.
Having better vocational training would be good no doubt, I'm just feeling cautious after all the talk of apprenticeships being the solution to everything.

My dad was looking at that area a lot as he lectured in building services and construction with an emphasis on low/zero carbon solutions and he really saw out courent vocational system being a mess.
He thought the (french or german or both i can't remember) model which push for close ties between teaching institutions , the unions and industry would work better.

 

[8ball]

I think the education vs. vocational training thing shouldn't have to be an either/or.

 

[chilango]

Was it Brighton that used a lottery to determine which school kids went to, as a result of middle class parents buying all the housing in the "best" catchment areas?

Yep.

Don't know how it went though. I think the US has done similar stuff too.

It's not the answer.

Removing competition is.

(Well, partially)

 

[chilango]

In the USA they have junior high and some other school I can't remember the name of. I think this is a good idea, secondary school for ages 11-18 is too big in a massive 1000± student comps.

Dividing up 11-14 and 15-18 is better, unless the school is already small.

Conversely, smaller schools that go 3-18 can work well IME.

 

[chilango]

Round here we do that (nearly). School till GCSE's, sixth form college for A levels. It works well. I'm baffled that this isn't the case everywhere in the UK already.

There are some "middle schools" in the UK. I'm not sure where or how many though.

 

[Thora]

Also, just on the "starting formal education" thing. Are you assuming "informal" education up til 7? I remember we learned a lot in nursery - it just didn't feel regimented. Then there's whether the point of that regimentation is really anything to do with education...

Universal free early education from age 2 to 6.