How will the night tube affect Brixton?

[ViolentPanda]

I haven't heard travellers on the DLR or even the largely automated Victoria line crying out for automation to be shut off and traditional driver trains to be reinstated. Perhaps that is because what's important to them is being delivered where they want to go safely and automation has increased capacity making travelling more comfortable (relative, of course, to what it would be like with less capacity).

Perhaps every time you make a call on your mobile phone you yearn for the good old days when every call had the human touch and all the jobs it created?

Didn't the Vic line still have "guards" on the trains until the early 2000s?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can't let this go. I'm all for people doing jobs people are better at and machines doing jobs machines are better at. Driving trains is a job that machines can almost certainly do better than people now; driving cars soon will be. Interacting with people is something people do better but we have devalued it so bartenders and shop assistants - and most egregiously in my opinion care workers - in our economy are some of the lowest of the low. On the tube, drivers are higher in the hierarchy (and, I believe, paid more) than platform assistants. It won't happen, unfortunately, but when drivers are replaced on trains and buses they should be *promoted* to the job of platform assistant.

Frankly, though, the argument isn't whether machines or humans are the most efficient, it's about the fact that currently travellers feel safer if there's a member of staff onboard. Obviously that's something the travelling public can be educated away from, but I'd say that the reassurance that human presence gives to travellers does currently make it worthwhile for TfL to continue to staff the tube trains.

 

[laptop]

Didn't the Vic line still have "guards" on the trains until the early 2000s?

They still have someone up front...

 

[CH1]

Didn't the Vic line still have "guards" on the trains until the early 2000s?

There have never been guards on the Victoria line. AFAIK the line was designed for the doors to be operated by the "drivers" who actually don't drive too much as the trains are semi automated.

At least that has been the case since I have been using it (from 1977).

Wikipedia reports:
The line is equipped with an Automatic Train Operation system (ATO); the train operator (driver) closes the train doors and presses a pair of "start" buttons, and if the way ahead is clear, the ATO drives the train at a safe speed to the next station and stops it there. This system has operated since the line opened in 1968, making the Victoria line the world's first full-scale automatic railway.[20]

 

[ViolentPanda]

Damn you and your logic!

If a tube carriage caught fire deep down between stations in the Northern Line, I know I'd rather there be a trained human onboard taking charge than an Intel i5.

Pay for an i5, get a 486.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"Wee hours"
There will be much more wee.

And chunder.

 

[boohoo]

Hear hear, comrade. Buses at the mo have space for one wheelchair, so, what, 2 buggies if a wheelchair isn't parked up? As for lifts, that's my dream - a public transport system that's as accessible as possible, not one that's accessible where convenient to TfL. It's ridiculous in this day and age that people have to cart buggies up and down stairs or escalators.

It's crap to be in competition with wheelchair users. They need to provide more chairs that fold up and down. And bus drivers need to show a bit more care to wheelchair users.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's crap to be in competition with wheelchair users. They need to provide more chairs that fold up and down. And bus drivers need to show a bit more care to wheelchair users.

Yup.
I'm forever holding Berlin up as a paragon of accessible public transport, because BVG (TfL's equivalent) are a paragon! There are fold-down seats on S-Bahn (overground) trains so that cycles buggies and wheelchairs can be transported, and lifts at about 94% of U-Bahn (underground) and S-Bahn stations. All buses are kneelers, and have most of the front section of the bus loaded with folding seats, so that 3-4 chairs and/or buggies can be loaded on, and more can be stored, same with the trams - level access at every stop, and buggy and chair spaces on every tram.
Here, as you indicate, wheelchair users are essentially at the whim of drivers, some of whom (if they are late on their route because of traffic) will skip stops with wheelchair users or buggy users queueing.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Didn't the Vic line still have "guards" on the trains until the early 2000s?

no.

the victoria line was driver-only (or 'automatic train operator' only) from the outset, and still is - they travel in the front cab - open and close doors at stations, and press the 'go' button - they then normally don't have to take control until the next station. They also drive the train conventionally in emergency (and I think in depots) and are of course trained to deal with emergency situations (e.g. evacuating the train in the event of an accident or fire.

The Victoria Line was the first London Underground line not to have a train guard as well (traditionally, the guard would travel towards the rear of the train, open and close doors and signal to the driver to start the train - both driver and guard would have specific responsibilities in the event of an emergency.)

All other Underground lines had conventional drivers and guards until the mid 1980s, then moved to driver-only operation - the 'sub surface' lines (circle / hammersmith / met / district / east london) first, then the 'deep tubes' (piccadilly, jubilee, central, bakerloo, northern) - the Northern Line was the last to have guards c. 2000.

Some lines (I think the Jubilee, Central and most recently the Northern Line) have been converted to 'Automatic Train Operation' akin to the Victoria Line but all these lines still have a train operator who travels in the front cab.

The Docklands Light Railway has also had ATO from day one - each train carries a member of staff who can drive the train from the front in an emergency and of course is trained to deal with emergencies.

On the DLR, the member of staff can move around the train, but it is worth noting that the DLR is mainly designed to allow emergency exit from the side doors not just the front or back of the train which is what has to happen on much of the Underground.

 

[paolo]

Travelling public don't give a shit as to whether the member of staff on board is physically manipulating the train controls. They just want a member of staff on board. Having an operator who roams the train is probably more reassuring than having that person sat in a locked box.

 

[T & P]

Maybe we'll get those guardian angel fellas patrolling the tube at night like the used to in New York...

 

[editor]

Maybe we'll get those guardian angel fellas patrolling the tube at night like the used to in New York...

We had them for a while in London years ago. They were something of a source of amusement to late night travellers.

 

[SarfLondoner]

We had them for a while in London years ago. They were something of a source of amusement to late night travellers.

 

[Mation]

lots of drunk people on trains in the wee hours will be interesting

Lots of wee on the trains in the drunk people hours will be... interesting

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Travelling public don't give a shit as to whether the member of staff on board is physically manipulating the train controls. They just want a member of staff on board. Having an operator who roams the train is probably more reassuring than having that person sat in a locked box.

Until the shit hits the fan on a packed peak hour train and it takes that staff member ten minutes to be able to move to somewhere they can do anything useful...

 

[Rushy]

Interesting article here on automating the tubes including history going back to the 20s, the first ever (unintentional) driverless journey on the Victoria Line and short to mid term effects on driver numbers. No idea who the authors (London Reconnections) are.

Not cutting down on drivers any time soon
Few examples demonstrate this quite so well as the question of future train driver numbers. As long as a year ago an article on Boriswatch highlighted London Underground’s published past and projected driver numbers. These clearly demonstrated that driver numbers have been going up since 2003, are going up now and are projected to continue to do so until 2015 after which they will remain constant for the next three years. Indeed despite all the talk, a simple moment’s thought shows that currently the trend can only continue to go upwards. Reasons for driver numbers to go up in future years include:

• More frequent services proposed for the Circle, District, Hammersmith & City, Jubilee, Metropolitan, Northern and Victoria Lines
• Croxley Rail Link and Northern Line Extension to Battersea being added to the tube network
• More “stepping back” at terminal stations due to the more frequent train service being run
• Introduction of the Night Tube

When one takes all this into account and considers any possible improvements in employment conditions (more days holiday or a shorter working week) one can quickly see that the reality is that even should the Piccadilly Line go UTO, London Underground will probably be doing very well indeed if they can keep the number of tube drivers in 2025 at or below the 2015 level. In other words, if UTO happens on the Piccadilly Line, it is not so much about reducing the number of drivers but trying to avoid the increase in the number of drivers that would otherwise be necessary.