How perfect is your car?

[Spymaster]

I don't hire cars anymore. Even when I did, it was only once or twice a year and knew nothing about personal car hire excess's back then. Last time I hired a car was 2 years ago.

Anyone who does hire cars should be aware of this. It’s one of the great motoring scams.

When you hire a vehicle you are automatically insured through the hire company for 3rd party losses and damage to the hire vehicle. Like any insurance policy there is an excess (a portion of the insurance claim that you are required to pay). The higher the excess, the lower the insurance cost so with hire cars the excesss is typically enormous, in some cases thousands of pounds, and you'll be required to pay this should the car get damaged in your posession. Additionally, hire companies don't feel obliged to find a cost effective repair solution to damage caused and paid for by their clients so you'll often find that seemingly trivial scratches and dings are charged at astronomical cost.

You are offered the option to "waive" the excess for an additional cost. The waiver is effectively another insurance policy that covers your excess and depending on the hire country this can often be seriously expensive too. In Ireland, for example, it can double the cost of the car hire. If you purchase this waiver at the time of booking online, you are usually buying this policy from the website owner who will get a commission, so if it's a car hire comparison site it's not the hire company. The hire company will require you to leave a substantial credit card deposit (typically £500-£1000) which they will take if there's any damage to the car. If you don't have a credit card or have insufficient funds on the one you do have, most will offer you another waiver at the pick-up desk which is outrageously expensive but which most people pay rather than having to find alternative transport for the rest of their trip

The solution is twofold. Firstly you need a credit card not a debit card. It's possible to hire a car without one but you'll get taken to the cleaners, as above. Even if you usually avoid them, this is a situation where one can save you hundreds, if not thousands, of pounds. If you're travelling and need to hire a car it's worthwhile getting a credit card, using it just for the trip, then destroying it when you return. Secondly; buy your own excess insurance. It's not expensive with an annual global policy at about £60. This policy will repay you the money the hire company takes from your credit card as well as any extra you may have to pay them.

It's not just the smaller hire firms doing this shit either. They're all at it.

 

[teuchter]

If you've got that kind of insurance (I've used it in the past)...

What happens when you bring the car back with a minor scratch and the hire company charges £2000 for it? That bill presumably goes to the insurance company, and presumably they say they aren't going to pay it, otherwise that insurance wouldn't be so cheap. And if they can say they aren't going to pay it, why can't I as an individual do the same?

 

[MickiQ]

When I worked for Evil American Megacorp, they had a deal with Avis where if we needed a hire car, we would call them quote our personal number and they would drop us one off. Though we got a copy of it, the bill went to the company who just paid it.
A ridiculous number something like a third had extra charges on them for things like chips in the windscreens, scuffs on the wheel etc. Didn't bother us and clearly it didn't seem to bother EAM. That's why on the very few occasions I personally have hired a car, I have always sprung for the full waiver that cuts the excess to £0.
Back in 2005 they supplied me with a Ford Focus to go to EAM's site on Tyneside and some fucker backed into it (and drove off) at the M1 services when I stopped for a piss, that just went through the system the same as all the 'pretend' damage though.

 

[SpookyFrank]

If you've got that kind of insurance (I've used it in the past)...

What happens when you bring the car back with a minor scratch and the hire company charges £2000 for it? That bill presumably goes to the insurance company, and presumably they say they aren't going to pay it, otherwise that insurance wouldn't be so cheap. And if they can say they aren't going to pay it, why can't I as an individual do the same?

Whether a bill for actual work ever gets sent to an actual insurance company is unclear tbh. I think it's just, we're allowed to charge you the full excess according to the contract you signed so that's what we're doing.

 

[teuchter]

Whether a bill for actual work ever gets sent to an actual insurance company is unclear tbh. I think it's just, we're allowed to charge you the full excess according to the contract you signed so that's what we're doing.

Either the contract entitles them to charge the excess or it doesn't. It shouldn't make a difference who is potentially going to pay it. Makes me wonder if this insurance is a bit of a scam in itself.

 

[MickiQ]

If you've got that kind of insurance (I've used it in the past)...

What happens when you bring the car back with a minor scratch and the hire company charges £2000 for it? That bill presumably goes to the insurance company, and presumably they say they aren't going to pay it, otherwise that insurance wouldn't be so cheap. And if they can say they aren't going to pay it, why can't I as an individual do the same?

When you hire a car you enter into a contract with them agreeing not to do that. Any insurance policies you sign are also contracts with you not the hire car company. Also like SpookyFrank, I'm confident that very minor damage just doesn't get fixed anyway. Avis flogged their cars off at 6 months and 9000 miles (whichever came sooner), the odd tiny blemish on a nearly new second hand car has no real effect on its resale price.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Either the contract entitles them to charge the excess or it doesn't. It shouldn't make a difference who is potentially going to pay it. Makes me wonder if this insurance is a bit of a scam in itself.

Insurance is a scam yes, particularly car insurance and the multiple layers of disincentive to actually claim anything on it.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

My car is perfect, It doesnt burn petrol, it doesnt need community destroying roads. It is not dangerous to others. It is made entirely from infinite resources and leaves no waste.
It doesnt exist. Nor do I feel entitled to it. It is unlikely to be stolen.

 

[teuchter]

When you hire a car you enter into a contract with them agreeing not to do that. Any insurance policies you sign are also contracts with you not the hire car company.

Yes, I know this. So what actually happens when they send the spurious bill, and it gets passed to the insurance company? My contract with the hire company says I have to pay it. My contract with the insurance company says they'll pay it for me. But they must have some way of not paying it, because otherwise they would not be able to offer the insurance so cheaply.

 

[MickiQ]

Yes, I know this. So what actually happens when they send the spurious bill, and it gets passed to the insurance company? My contract with the hire company says I have to pay it. My contract with the insurance company says they'll pay it for me. But they must have some way of not paying it, because otherwise they would not be able to offer the insurance so cheaply.

When you hire a car, you take out 2 insurance contracts, one is with the hirers insurance which is a standard insurance policy that will cover all third party liability (which could of course run into millions) plus repairs to the car minus the excess. This is the same as any car insurance save that hire car excesses are very high (Avis ones are/were £800). You then take out a second insurance policy either with the hirer or a third party insurer (like Spy does) that covers you against paying that excess sum.
Insurance prices aren't worked out on how easily they can wriggle out of paying it (though it might seem like it at times), they are worked out by actuaries on the basis of shared risk. The excess insurance will never have to pay the full cost of any claim only what you owe the car hire for the excess.

 

[Spymaster]

If you've got that kind of insurance (I've used it in the past)...

What happens when you bring the car back with a minor scratch and the hire company charges £2000 for it? That bill presumably goes to the insurance company, and presumably they say they aren't going to pay it, otherwise that insurance wouldn't be so cheap. And if they can say they aren't going to pay it, why can't I as an individual do the same?

It doesn't happen. The most that a hire car firm will try to keep for minor damage is likely to be your credit card deposit or a portion of it. That is held by them so it's relatively easy for them to pinch and most people wouldn't bother going through the hassle of challenging it, and unless the insurance company was getting hundreds of these from the same firms I guess it must still be profitable for them. As you say if the hire firms try to push for more, unreasonably, through the insurance companies they'd likely get told to fuck off. Also, most small scratches and dings don't get repaired. The hire firms have a schedule for what they charge for minor damage (e.g. 'a scratch less than 2 inches that doesn't reach the metal - £500' etc, etc ...) which they charge and set-off against the vehicle's depreciation. If they took every car that got dinged out of service for repairs, half their fleet would be permanently off the road, hence why they take you around the car when you pick it up, marking-off all the existing nicks and chips.

 

[teuchter]

I'm not sure either of you are entirely understanding my point.

It seems like when you pay for the 3rd party insurance, you are not really paying for insurance as such but some kind of mechanism to save you the hassle of challenging deductions from your deposit that aren't legitimate. It seems like you could choose not to have that insurance, and instead simply challenge the hire companies if they try and make a deduction.

 

[Spymaster]

It seems like when you pay for the 3rd party insurance, you are not really paying for insurance as such but some kind of mechanism to save you the hassle of challenging deductions from your deposit that aren't legitimate. It seems like you could choose not to have that insurance, and instead simply challenge the hire companies if they try and make a deduction.

You could. You make that choice but the "mechanism" that you mention is called insurance. Also, the deposit is only part of the excess. Without the insurance you are liable for the full excess, which could be several thousand pounds more than your credit card deposit.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'm not sure either of you are entirely understanding my point.

It seems like when you pay for the 3rd party insurance, you are not really paying for insurance as such but some kind of mechanism to save you the hassle of challenging deductions from your deposit that aren't legitimate. It seems like you could choose not to have that insurance, and instead simply challenge the hire companies if they try and make a deduction.

It is excess waiver insurance. If the car hire company steals the excess that you have already paid, cos scratches, dings etc. the insurance company reimburses that excess, which could be several thousand pounds, but more normally between £200 and £800. And of course not every hire results in excesses being kept, two of mine have in the past 30 years...

 

[Spymaster]

And of course not every hire results in excesses being kept, two of mine have in the past 30 years...

Don't think I've ever had one kept.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Don't think I've ever had one kept.

I had one this summer, a crew cab van and I scratched/dented the side on a gate post. Bloke at Kendall's looked like he was going to hit me when I told him. And in Italy a couple of years ago Frau Bahn returned the car to the airport as I had to leave for London a couple of days early for work, she crashed in the airport car park, ffs

Kendall's could have been £2k, but their excess waiver took it down to £200. The Italian job had 100% excess waiver on it, so cost nothing.

 

[Spymaster]

Bloke at Kendall's looked like he was going to hit me when I told him.

 

[trashpony]

Even if you have excess they often try to pin damage on you. I take a photo of every single bit of damage on every hire car I get as soon as I pick it up. And then if they try and pin anything on you, you have evidence it was already there. They tried that on me in Tenerife in February. Obviously the last time I left the country

 

[mauvais]

Frau Bahn returned the car to the airport as I had to leave for London a couple of days early for work, she crashed in the airport car park, ffs

First time I ever drove a car on my own, in pursuit of buying an Alfa, I hired a Corsa from Enterprise and drove from Southampton Airport to Bath. About 120 miles of country roads, serious hill starts, overtaking a tractor at speed that makes me pale a bit now that I think of the cluelessness/danger ratio, but it was all fine. Then I brought it back to Southampton Airport and drove it into another Enterprise Corsa.

 

[teuchter]

And of course not every hire results in excesses being kept, two of mine have in the past 30 years...

If you'd been paying excess waiver insurance at £60 per year then you've paid £1800 for the insurance... so does that come to less than the two that you've had to pay?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If you'd been paying excess waiver insurance at £60 per year then you've paid £1800 for the insurance... so does that come to less than the two that you've had to pay?

I hadn't, I take it out with each hire, but I don't hire that many vehicles, often less than one a year.

 

[teuchter]

you'll often find that seemingly trivial scratches and dings are charged at astronomical cost.

Don't think I've ever had one kept.

Seems like there's a contradiction here.

 

[Spymaster]

I had one this summer, a crew cab van and I scratched/dented the side on a gate post. Bloke at Kendall's looked like he was going to hit me when I told him. And in Italy a couple of years ago Frau Bahn returned the car to the airport as I had to leave for London a couple of days early for work, she crashed in the airport car park, ffs

In Sicily I hit a pothole bursting 2 tyres. I was quite close to the villa and it was really hot, so since it was a hire car I drove it home on the flats. Got back and stuck it on the drive, called up the company and a short while later a little fella comes along with a new motor on a low-loader. He put that one down but the way I'd parked the other one and the fact that 2 wheels were totally fucked made it really difficult to take it away and he was shouting and cursing. When he finally did get it onboard he made me sign the paperwork, chucked the keys at me really hard and fucked off

 

[Spymaster]

Seems like there's a contradiction here.

Lol! Believe it or not I know of lots of people who aren't me.

 

[teuchter]

Lol! Believe it or not I know of lots of people who aren't me.

I think what you are saying is that you're a great driver who is very unlikely to bring the hire car back with any dinks - unlike some people you know.

And you're advising those other people to take out this insurance that will cover them for the dinks and scratches that they'll almost certainly bring back the hire car with - and get over-charged for the fictional repair costs.

So it seems unwise for you to buy the same excess insurance as these careless people, because you must be subsidising the hundreds of pounds the insurance company has to pay out for their incompetence. You're exactly the kind of driver who ought to push down the cost of your insurance by accepting relatively high excess amounts.

Sorry to say it but it sounds like you are being scammed here, by careless drivers and the insurance industry. But on the plus side I'm giving you this advice for free and you're welcome.

 

[Spymaster]

But on the plus side I'm giving you this advice for free and you're welcome.

Cheers!

 

[teuchter]

Cheers!

I hope you act on it, unlike my advice to get a Jaguar, and then you went and bought a Mercedes or something.

 

[Spymaster]

I hope you act on it, unlike my advice to get a Jaguar, and then you went and bought a Mercedes or something.

BMW.

I bought it because you liked the Jag.

 

[teuchter]

I bought it because you liked the Jag.

Very predictable. My plan worked perfectly.

 

[A380]