Holocaust: the facts

[Shechemite]

Cheers all.

I guess one of the things I’m wanting to understand is how much change/continuity there is between ‘democratic’ capitalism and fascism with regard to the disabled/mentally ill, as well as the Holocaust of the disabled/mentally ill in and of itself.

butchersapron , you suggested Puekert. Would ‘inside Nazi Germany’ be a good place to start (I think I may have read bits of this at uni as some of his ideas ring a bell).

 

[Manter]

Does anyone know of any good resources for understanding:

1) nazi ideology/policy/practice towards mentally ill and disabled people (eg T4 and the Black Triangle, eugenics etc)

2) broader fascist attitudes and practices regarding mentally ill and disabled people

3) resistance to these ideologies and practices (both of 1 and 2)

4) the historiography of 1, 2 and 3

Ushmm has some interesting (horrific) online resources on 1-3

 

[Shechemite]

Ushmm has some interesting (horrific) online resources on 1-3

Ushmm?

 

[Manter]

United States holocaust memorial museum

 

[Shechemite]

United States holocaust memorial museum

Thanks

 

[danny la rouge]

The 29-year-old son of a close friend has asked me to to lend him a couple of books on the Holocaust. I am seeing him tonight, and had decided upon Mayer’s Why Did The Heavens Not Darken, and Night by Élie Wiesel. I wanted a functionalist historical account and a shorter, personal memoir. The guy's got a keen mind, but is starting on this without any academic background. (He left school early and despite being bright, didn’t do well at school. He’s trying to make up for that, but doesn’t always make wise choices).

But now I’m wondering whether the Mayer is a bad choice. Would Kershaw’s Hitler, the Germans and the Final Solution be better?

 

[butchersapron]

I think it's a proper great choice - slam straight into it in it's best form. Then, if he's interested the overviews of competing stuff you mention. Mayer writes clearly and when he needs to ref past stuff/debates he does so in a simple open educators way. 100% good choice.

 

[danny la rouge]

Cheers. I’ll stick with that then.

 

[butchersapron]

Cheers. I’ll stick with that then.

I read Raul Hilberg's autobiography a few weeks back, he hated Mayer (and a lot of other people too) and this book in particular.

 

[danny la rouge]

I’ve got an abridged version of Hilberg’s Disappearance, but I couldn’t see it. I think I’ve lent it to someone else.

 

[butchersapron]

I’ve got an abridged version of Hilberg’s Disappearance, but I couldn’t see it. I think I’ve lent it to someone else.

The one he really hated was lucy davidowitz. With a proper passion. Quite rightly too. He hated Arendt, but she didn't so much pretend to be what this thread is about as LD so i'll leave that.

 

[butchersapron]

Cheers. Very much appreciated

Not sure if this is any good but just came across it and thought i'd pass it on: The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide.

 

[not-bono-ever]

.

 

[Shechemite]

On the role of Institutions in the Nazi Aktion T4

From my (er, haphazard) reading, pre-1939 institutions/ institutionalisatio played 3 key roles in the Aktion T4 programme

1) it was from within the Institutions (not ‘the community’) that patients were selected for Aktion T4

2) One of the categories that health authorities were required to identify was ‘those who had been confined to the institution in question for more than five years’

3 The murder of selected patients took pace within the pre-existing institutions themselves, not in separate concentration/death camps.

Is this an accurate reading? Are there other roles the institutions played? Were there patients selected from outside the institutions - if so, how many/what percentage of the total sterilised/experimented upon/killed?

Cheers.

 

[Maggot]

Documentary about Holocaust deniers on tonight.

Confronting Holocaust Denial with David Baddiel

Find out when Confronting Holocaust Denial with David Baddiel is on TV. Episode guide, trailer, review, preview, cast list and where to stream it on demand, on catch up and download.

www.radiotimes.com

 

[Manter]

A friend of mine was talking about the ceremony in Vienna to clean the Solpersteine recording her grandparents and uncle who were deported to Auschwitz. I’ve just searched and there is nothing about Solpersteine on here.... so am linking to the official website (under development at the moment to have more research info etc).

I’ve always found them incredibly moving to stumble across but I didn’t know how many countries they were in, or that, as a member of the public, you could arrange for them to be installed. There is a guide on this website on how, permissions, etc.

website:

STOLPERSTEINE: NEWS

 

[rekil]

Documentary about Holocaust deniers on tonight.

Confronting Holocaust Denial with David Baddiel

Find out when Confronting Holocaust Denial with David Baddiel is on TV. Episode guide, trailer, review, preview, cast list and where to stream it on demand, on catch up and download.

www.radiotimes.com

I think this is the loon he gives time to.

Man put axe through TV in town square in 'performance art piece' to further his claims Holocaust did not take place

A judge has jailed a ‘Holocaust denier’ for five months for using performance art in the public square in Ennis to further his claims that the Holocaust did not take place.

www.independent.ie

Spoiler

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I thought David Baddiel did a good job with this. Raised some interesting points about ‘no platform’ in a social media age, how AS can become normalised and misread as struggle and I was pleased to see him make extensive use of academics. Very powerful at times.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Something that occurs to me is that it might help dealing with deniers if it were made more widely known that the Holocaust happened to other groups as well as European Jews. You already have to be a tad removed from reality if you can believe that each and every one of Europe’ Jews conspired together to fabricate the events of WW2. But a true denier then has to include Russian POW’s, physically handicapped Germans, the mentally ill, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Spanish Republicans etc, homosexuals, civilians in Russia and elsewhere, gypsies, socialists, communists, anarchists, pacifists etc etc. That is some conspiracy!

I’m not trying to downgrade the Jewish experience here, but the evidence of concentration camps, extermination camps, gas chambers, execution squads, reprisal killings etc is so overwhelming and affected so many. I suspect most members on urban75 would have ended up in some camp somewhere had they been around at the time.

 

[Pickman's model]

Something that occurs to me is that it might help dealing with deniers if it were made more widely known that the Holocaust happened to other groups as well as European Jews. You already have to be a tad removed from reality if you can believe that each and every one of Europe’ Jews conspired together to fabricate the events of WW2. But a true denier then has to include Russian POW’s, physically handicapped Germans, the mentally ill, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Spanish Republicans etc, homosexuals, civilians in Russia and elsewhere, gypsies, socialists, communists, anarchists, pacifists etc etc. That is some conspiracy!

I’m not trying to downgrade the Jewish experience here, but the evidence of concentration camps, extermination camps, gas chambers, execution squads, reprisal killings etc is so overwhelming and affected so many. I suspect most members on urban75 would have ended up in some camp somewhere had they been around at the time.

some few on a paid basis no doubt

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I’m not trying to downgrade the Jewish experience here, but the evidence of concentration camps, extermination camps, gas chambers, execution squads, reprisal killings etc is so overwhelming and affected so many. I suspect most members on urban75 would have ended up in some camp somewhere had they been around at the time.

One of the most striking parts of the programme was when Baddiel went to the National Archives to read the file on the approach of the British Government. The policy advice it provided to its own propagandists explicitly singles out 'jews' and 'violent political opponents" of the fascists as two groups who should not be identified as victims.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Saw this on Iplayer. Very powerful. His closing remarks on truth were a strong culmination of the topic. I had issues with the way the interview went with the Irish denier. It didn't feel like a real interview or was badly edited. That would in itself give ammunition to the denier community.
The Palestinian section could have gone in deeper. Fascinating stats on "% of deniers by country."

 

[Serge Forward]

A friend of mine was talking about the ceremony in Vienna to clean the Solpersteine recording her grandparents and uncle who were deported to Auschwitz. I’ve just searched and there is nothing about Solpersteine on here.... so am linking to the official website (under development at the moment to have more research info etc).

I’ve always found them incredibly moving to stumble across but I didn’t know how many countries they were in, or that, as a member of the public, you could arrange for them to be installed. There is a guide on this website on how, permissions, etc.

website:

STOLPERSTEINE: NEWS

My youngest son was at the laying of the stolpersteine for his great grandad, who was taken from Frankfurt to Sobibor.

 

[Manter]

My youngest son was at the laying of the stolpersteine for his great grandad, who was taken from Frankfurt to Sobibor.

Like feels an inappropriate response.... but it’s an amazing, moving thing for a kid to experience and bear witness to

 

[Serge Forward]

It was. He also did a talk to students at his grandad's old school (he was in Buchenwald after kristalnacht but got out and escaped to England) as well as the Anne Frank school in Frankfurt (his family knew the Franks).

 

[rekil]

Didn't the same film maker do a separate one on the uprising at Sobibor? Years since I saw it but also a great work.

Yes it's mainly Yehuda Lerner's testimony. Sobibór, October 14, 1943, 4 p.m. (2001) - IMDb

In addition to 1987's somewhat dated looking Escape from Sobibor (TV Movie 1987) - IMDb there was a Russian fillum last year which focused on Alexander Pechersky's role. Sobibor (2018) - IMDb

 

[petee]

Yes it's mainly Yehuda Lerner's testimony. Sobibór, October 14, 1943, 4 p.m. (2001) - IMDb

it's really something.
criterion collection packages that with Shoah. i bought it summer 2018 and watched 4 nights straight, gripped.

 

[Argonia]

Don't know if this has been posted already but I have just discovered the excellent Auschwitz Memorial Twitter page where they add details of people who died there each day based on their birthdays.

https://twitter.com/AuschwitzMuseum

 

[Sprocket.]

Don't know if this has been posted already but I have just discovered the excellent Auschwitz Memorial Twitter page where they add details of people who died there each day based on their birthdays.

https://twitter.com/AuschwitzMuseum

Resources like this one you posted make it more personal and hard hitting than any references to overwhelming numbers of victims.

 

[Argonia]

Resources like this one you posted make it more personal and hard hitting than any references to overwhelming numbers of victims.

I agree. There's something so poignant and haunting about photos of victims. I can't get my head around how it all happened.