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Holocaust: the facts

She made the common mistake of thinking race is about skin colour. It isn’t: race is about racism.

It really is infuriating to hear people who claim to be anti-racist fail so spectacularly to get this. Even the most cursory knowledge of the history of racism and the construction of race makes it obvious. FFS it's not that long since 'races' like the Irish and the modern Greeks were were widely deemed by 'whites' to be inferior; I'd like to see her try this stupidity out on one of their national TV channels.
 
It really is infuriating to hear people who claim to be anti-racist fail so spectacularly to get this. Even the most cursory knowledge of the history of racism and the construction of race makes it obvious. FFS it's not that long since 'races' like the Irish and the modern Greeks were were widely deemed by 'whites' to be inferior; I'd like to see her try this stupidity out on one of their national TV channels.
I don’t actually blame her. This is where identity politics as we now have it - not what was intended, or where it could have been, but as we now have it - gets us. It’s all about competing identities, pitted against each other. Rather than questioning the ideology that has created the divisions. The divisions are seen as naturally occurring. And skin colour, because it is used to signify race, has come for many people to be race. Rather than the older way of looking at it which many of us will remember, that race is constructed by racism.

I wish more people would think about this, because it’s the way to bridge many of the seemingly unbridgeable chasms we have today. But they don’t because that’s not the common sense in society.
 
I don’t actually blame her. This is where identity politics as we now have it - not what was intended, or where it could have been, but as we now have it - gets us. It’s all about competing identities, pitted against each other. Rather than questioning the ideology that has created the divisions. The divisions are seen as naturally occurring. And skin colour, because it is used to signify race, has come for many people to be race. Rather than the older way of looking at it which many of us will remember, that race is constructed by racism.

I wish more people would think about this, because it’s the way to bridge many of the seemingly unbridgeable chasms we have today. But they don’t because that’s not the common sense in society.

No, I don't really hold it against her individually either - it's just woeful that even the more well-meaning parts of mainstream society frequently have so little grasp on this. But I have to say that I don't necessarily share your slightly hell-in-a-handcart picture of the current state of things. I agree about the degeneration of identity politics into binary shouting matches often facilitated by social media. But not always visible below that level of (non-)discourse, I find a lot of younger activists have a much more sophisticated understanding of the systemic nature of the problem than I had in my teens or early 20s. Most people aren't activists, of course, but some of the tools are there for prompting more-nuanced conversations in more places.
 
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She sort of apologized for her comments then qualified this on US Late Show.

I wish the focus wasn't just on her. Looking at my social media there is some sympathy for her. But she shouldn't have said this on public media.

Some sections of Black community believe White Supremacy idea. This is the where it leads. The Holocaust was just white folks fighting each other.

Reading up on the banning of the Maus book and this was down to school board not liking the language. The actual history module sounded very good and progressive. The teachers were defending it. Sales in US soared after banning.

Point being that Whoopi Goldberg brought up Holocaust and race. It wasn't connected with reason Maus was banned. She decided to air her views on race on TV.


Colbert asked her if she realizes that Nazis considered their attempt to exterminate the Jewish people very much a racial issue.

“This is what’s interesting to me: The Nazis lied,” she said. “They had issues with ethnicity. Most of the Nazis were white people and most of the people they were attacking were white people. So to me, I’m thinking, ‘How can you say it’s about race when you’re fighting each other?’ … Don’t write me anymore, I know how you feel. I’ll take your word for it and never bring it up again.”
 
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Reading up on the banning of the Maus book and this was down to school board not liking the language. The actual history module sounded very good and progressive. The teachers were defending it. Sales in US soared after banning.

I read this graphic novel a few years back. It's a quite remarkable work - brutal, yet tender and moving.

(Make sure you read the Complete Maus, which combines both parts 1 and 2).
 
How strange and haunting this footage is. It's like glimpsing a beautiful young ghost....




Amazing how immediately recognisable as her it is.

I wonder how high up she'd appear on a list of the most widely recognised faces of the 20th century (in the UK, at least)?
 
Amazing how immediately recognisable as her it is.

I wonder how high up she'd appear on a list of the most widely recognised faces of the 20th century (in the UK, at least)?
You don't have to wonder: she's the 5th most famous writer of all time according to yougov

 
You don't have to wonder: she's the 5th most famous writer of all time according to yougov


That's about the diary itself and about name recognition ('have heard of'), though - not necessarily the same as the recognisability of her image.

It's harder to find stats on that. But a 2012 poll in the Metro found that Hitler was the most widely recognised person, followed by Simon Cowell, suggesting that facial recognition is directly proportionate to evil.
 
As is usual with Kevin Malik he's written a very good piece on the Whoopi Goldberg controversy


He's also pointing out some links with Nazi ideology and segregation in the US. which offers points of solidarity between Jews and African American historically.

He's critical of the now prevalent concept of White Supremacy. He'd rather the focus wasn't on Whoopi Goldberg but that her comments would start a conversation about what racism is. Unfortunately I doubt that will happen.
 
I posted on the WW2 thread about a BBC podcast covering the Nuremberg trials which featured evidence collecting from survivors of the camps. Putting it in this thread too.

World War II
 
I've almost finished book that was recommended here ( butchersapron )


By Arno Mayer

Wondering what to say about it. I would recommend it as a work that covers not only the mechanics of the Holocaust but context in which it took place. Starts with a short history of Jews in Europe at this period. Then goes into the reasons for the rise of the Nazi and Hitler. Before going into the Judeocide. His prefered term. He wasn't keen on the term Holocaust.

For him Hitler didn't have a premeditated plan to murder the Jews of Europe. The war as well as Nazi ideological hatred of Jews interacted. When the war on the Eastern front started to go badly the level of violence against the Jews increased. He sees this a rage coinciding with the setbacks the German army was having in the East.

One camp near the end of the war most inmates were killed by Germans themselves. ( that is not gassed. Brutal face to face killing. In fact large percentage of Jews were killed in this way during the war.) He sees this as a rage at losing the war which was taken out on the Jews.

The early years of the Reich saw Jews gradually lose their civil rights in "legalistic" fashion. In order to keep his traditional elite supporters onside Hitler got rid of the more proletarian Street fighting Brown Shirts. To be replaced by Himmlers SS. Who were elite drawn in early days from the upper echelons of society. It was SS who were to play major role in the Judeocide. The "rational" bureaucratic way to deal with the Jewish "problem" became pre eminent

Emigration was difficult but encouraged by early Reich. Still as Mayer points out many German Jews simply could not believe this oppression of German Jews could last. This was understandable as German Jews were highly assimilated unlike Jews from the East. Germany in many ways was advanced liberal society. Hitler was in power initially due to the old elite Conservative elements in society seeing him as bulwark against Socialism/ Communisn.

Actual violence against Jews rather than "legal" oppression was limited and controlled. Mayer ( controversial ) view is that Jewish policy wasnt at all times something Hitler put first.

So if I read him right the Holocaust/ Judeocide as it happened was not inevitable. Thats not to say Hitler didnt want a conquered Europe to be Jew free. But their was more then one plan. One idea was to deport them all to Madasgascar. That was a non starter as UK ruled the waves and it wasnt going to cooperate. Emigration was affected by how many Jews another country would take. Jews did leave. Often for other European countries like France. Where they were trapped later on. UK limited numbers to Palestine. Hitler wasn't keen on Jews setting up in Palestine.

Operation Barbarossa was meant to be quick defeat of the Soviet Union. The Jews would have been pushed out and expelled from Europe. However the war in the East got bogged down due to Soviet dogged resistance.

This meant the Jews of Eastern Europe could not be pushed over the Urals out of Europe. Germany suddenly found itself occupying land with a large minority population of Jews.

For Hitler the war in the East was a war against Judeo Bolshevism. The killing squads that followed the German army early on didn't specifically target Jews. They targeted a range of people. Communists, etc.

There was murdering of Jews by locals. Encouraged by the Nazis. But at that stage no planned extermination programme.

Like in Germany Jews in occupied East Europe lost civil rights. They were separated off from general population into ghettos.

Still at this point many Jews could just survive. Within the SS their was a split between those who wanted to keep Jews alive as slave labour producing goods for the German army and the "exterminists" who wanted to kill them straight away.

Poor living conditions meant many Jews died or became incapable of work. The early killings were of those no longer capable of work.

So Mayer is saying the fate of the Jews was bound up with the exigencies of the war on the Eastern front.

The full on murder only took place in closing months of the war when the Red Army were clearly pushing the German army back.

Mayer implicates not just the SS but German industry and the German army. None of them had clean hands.

German business / industry never pushed back at getting involved in using Jewish slave labour. Due to war demands more and more German workers were called up leaving a Labour shortage. So keeping Jews alive as replacement workers was "pragmatic" move.

So instead of a straight line from Hitler getting to power to the gas Chambers its a more gradual move to the "final solution".

I have a few doubts. When Hitler invaded Eastern Europe the Nazis must have known that this would mean occupying land with large number of Jews. Mayer almost treats it as an accident. They suddenly found themselves with the problem of millions of Jews to deal with. I maybe read him wrong but I can't believe the Nazis didn't realise this would happen.

Second whilst they were used as slave labour Mayer says life expectency was three months. They were deliberately worked to death. Which is as good as exterminating them. The reversal of the war in Red Army favour may have hastened the mass murder of Jews but even if Germany had prevailed I'm wondering if the Jews would have been worked to death as slave labour. Hence the Judeocide would have still happened but taken longer. So maybe he's making to much of the difference of divisions in the SS over this?

Where he is convincing is how Hitler changed his rhetoric. At beginning of the war on Eastern front he was emphasising this as war to crush Bolshevism. Hoping to gain more support.

As war went on he increasingly started to blame Jews as the hidden hand in US and USSR setting both countries against Germany. An embattled Hitler and Nazi faithful took their rage at starting to lose the war out on the Jews.

Mayer looks at history of persecution of Jews in Europe. Which started off in the early crusades. Instead of going straight to the Holy Land the early crusades went on through Europe making pogroms against Jews as they went. Mayer compares this to Hitler war on the Eastern front. Mayer makes convincing case that the war against Judeo Bolshevism was a modern day crusade. That was how the Nazis saw it. German churches on the whole supported this. As it was against atheistic communism.

One of the few parts of Europe were Jews were safe was the Soviet Union.

Anti semitism was rife in Eastern Europe but it was not genocidal. Jews were most at risk during times of conflict and chaos. In 20c Europe after end of WW1 when revolutions and new states were forming attacks on Jews took place. This calmed down for a while once these new states and governments were established.

For a while the position of Jews improved.

Another thing Mayer goes on about is simultaneity or rather lack of it. Take Germany - whilst in many ways it was a modernising country it was still ruled by entrenched old elites. So it was a combination of old and new. With the old holding the country back. The old elites made a pact with the devil to keep their power. Hitler had the populist touch they didn't have. Mayer sees this a problem across most of Eastern Europe. If I read him right this leads to a blockage in social progress with ,as can be seen with rise of Hitler dangerous, consequences.

This I don't fully grasp. It's quite a difficult idea.

Mayer sees the post WW1 formation of new small states in Eastern Europe as a bit of a disaster. They ended up largely being run by the old conservative elites that survived WW1.

The Soviet Union, whilst brutal, was a modernising force. The Jews in Soviet Union weren't held back from education or social advancement. Unlike in many of the new Eastern European countries.

Taking it to now ( Ukraine crisis) Mayer did not I think see the post WW1 settlement of new borders as conducive to peace in long term. Soviet Union giving up on expanding westwards and joining up with European communist parties meant it turned inwards. To the detriment of the form of communism it built in one country. Maybe could say this legacy is still here.

As one can see their is an awful lot of ground and ideas covered in this book. Which is not a criticism. It's a plus point. I wasn't expecting this when I started it. Thought it would cover the Judeocide/ Holocaust but not putting it into context.

I haven't looked at the reception Mayer book got yet. I think some of it could be seen as controversial. He doesn't down play the Holocaust. But at times reading it it almost reads like he's saying it was a minor issue for the Nazis. Only coming to the for when they were facing defeat.

Anyway I've still got the end to read yet.

I'm not saying everything Ive written is right. If anyone else has read the book be interested to see what they think And I'm wondering what writers take a different view to him?
 
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Ernst Bloch

Haven't read this yet. But this is the idea that features in Mayer book re post WW1 states and society. That is Germany and the new states in Eastern Europe.

If anyone can this idea describe simply? I'd be grateful
 
Another thing I felt Mayer was stuck on was the killing centres built at end of war. Four of them purely to kill Jews and some other groups. But mainly Jews by the thousands . All the other sites had been concentration camps that evolved over time. Starting to hold political prisoners/ POWs then more Jews. Slave Labour for industry/ factories built nearby. Some kind of rational reason behind them. However perverted the reasoning.

Its like the final killing centres with gas chambers can't be explained to fit neatly in his argument that the Judeocide was a gradual process. He's sort of stumped by this.

Maybe some aspects of the Holocaust/ Judeocide can't really be explained fully? Not the fault of Mayer. This was a horrific criminal act by the Nazis. Planned extermination. Not a pogram. Even the Nazis knew it was criminal act and tried to hide it.
 
A controversial topic in Holocaust studies is the the killing of Jews by local population. Not the Nazis.

Mayer takes view this happened. Taking for example report from underground Jewish group smuggled out to the west. They were clear it was citizens of Baltic States / Ukraine plus Germans who took part in Eastern Europe. Not unwillingly.

In Poland recent film on known massacre of Jews by their fellow Polish villagers was heavily criticised by the right in Poland ( Law and Justice party). For years the blame had been put on the German army.

This example is not in the book. But the controversy around the film even now shows what a touchy subject it is.

 
Actual violence against Jews rather than "legal" oppression was limited and controlled. Mayer ( controversial ) view is that Jewish policy wasnt at all times something Hitler put first.

So if I read him right the Holocaust/ Judeocide as it happened was not inevitable. Thats not to say Hitler didnt want a conquered Europe to be Jew free. But their was more then one plan. One idea was to deport them all to Madasgascar. That was a non starter as UK ruled the waves and it wasnt going to cooperate. Emigration was affected by how many Jews another country would take. Jews did leave. Often for other European countries like France. Where they were trapped later on. UK limited numbers to Palestine. Hitler wasn't keen on Jews setting up in Palestine.
.......

So instead of a straight line from Hitler getting to power to the gas Chambers its a more gradual move to the "final solution".

I have a few doubts. When Hitler invaded Eastern Europe the Nazis must have known that this would mean occupying land with large number of Jews. Mayer almost treats it as an accident. They suddenly found themselves with the problem of millions of Jews to deal with. I maybe read him wrong but I can't believe the Nazis didn't realise this would happen.

......

I haven't looked at the reception Mayer book got yet. I think some of it could be seen as controversial. He doesn't down play the Holocaust. But at times reading it it almost reads like he's saying it was a minor issue for the Nazis. Only coming to the for when they were facing defeat.
I've not read the Mayer book so cannot comment directly but from what you've said I think there's quite a lot of overlap with Kershaw's 'working towards the fuher' thesis.

That Hitler and the Nazi's deliberately delegated implementation to those below, catching up the tension then letting the 'middle mangers' implement it before restoring some sort on control and then repeating the cycle.

If you're not feeling too much done after Mayer you might want to try Kershaw's (brilliant) biography of Hitler.
 
I've not read the Mayer book so cannot comment directly but from what you've said I think there's quite a lot of overlap with Kershaw's 'working towards the fuher' thesis.

That Hitler and the Nazi's deliberately delegated implementation to those below, catching up the tension then letting the 'middle mangers' implement it before restoring some sort on control and then repeating the cycle.

If you're not feeling too much done after Mayer you might want to try Kershaw's (brilliant) biography of Hitler.

Thanks. I've put Kershaw on my reading list.

Mayer is saying something similar.

Hitler ( and this sounds very odd) was in some ways a pragmatist. Take the Brown Shirts. Hitler managed to persuade the old elites in Germany that he was onside with them. That they could work together.

Hitlers violence against Jews in Germany was controlled from above once the Brown shirts were removed. The street fighting Brownshirts were to "radical".

This didn't mean that Hitler was against the Brown Shirts. It was that he was playing a longer game.

Mayer says Hitler pitched his election campaigns to get the lower middle class on board.

Given that my reading of Mayer book was that the Nazis were not against "business". They worked well up to end of war with big German business. The economy of the occupied Eastern Europe was settling down to be about slave labour camps with German firm setting up factories around them. SS under Himmler were vital for this. SS wasn't just a military organisation / quasi military. It was also setting itself up to be economic organisation. Not anti existing large firm but setting up a system they could operate in. If the Nazi state had survived the SS would have been an economic player in their own right. Himmler was setting up , with Hitler blessing, a state within a state imo.

Mayer sort of indicates where a settled Nazi state was going.

Its quite staggering the business that Mayer says were involved in slave labour. BMW for example.

Given that Hitler wasn't keen on modern day capitalism , according to Mayer, unless it was about making armanents. He didn't want a overseas Empire like Britain . He wanted to take over Eastern Europe to build a state of sturdy colonising German farmers. An economy that meant Germany could feed itself. He was not a supporter of capitalist globalisation.

More about making Germany self sufficient within its enlarged borders.
 
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A controversial topic in Holocaust studies is the the killing of Jews by local population. Not the Nazis.

Mayer takes view this happened. Taking for example report from underground Jewish group smuggled out to the west. They were clear it was citizens of Baltic States / Ukraine plus Germans who took part in Eastern Europe. Not unwillingly.
I believe that not all the states that fought alongside the Germans against Russia took part in these killings. Estonia and Finland, in particular, resisted any such pressure. Bulgaria, too, never actually deported its own Jewish population. Eastern Europe's involvement with Germany in WW2 is not straightforward.
 
I believe that not all the states that fought alongside the Germans against Russia took part in these killings. Estonia and Finland, in particular, resisted any such pressure. Bulgaria, too, never actually deported its own Jewish population. Eastern Europe's involvement with Germany in WW2 is not straightforward.
Jersey didn't resist deportation of its Jewish population.

 
The involvement of local populations is to my mind the worst bit, or at least one of the worst. My grandparents and a little group of other jews, families, were hiding in a forest outside their town in Czechoslovakia to avoid the transports and it was some townspeople, their neighbours, who led the nazis to their hiding place, or so they told me.
 
I believe that not all the states that fought alongside the Germans against Russia took part in these killings. Estonia and Finland, in particular, resisted any such pressure. Bulgaria, too, never actually deported its own Jewish population. Eastern Europe's involvement with Germany in WW2 is not straightforward.

There were Estonian collaborators,


There is difference between states that fought alongside the Nazis and those taken over by them

Hungarian Jews survived to last months of the War. Hungary was independent country allied to the Nazis.

It run by right wing government drawn from the traditional elites. But not hard line anti Semitic like Nazis.

It was only at near end of war that Hitler ordered the German military to take over. He was afraid that Hungary was trying to do a deal to surrender to the Americans/ British.

German military presence forced a change of government that included those who would support deporting Jews


Hitler personally tried to get Admiral Horthy the head of Hungary to get on with it and help get rid of the Jews.

By that time they were bargaining chips. Some wanted to do deal with US to surrender saying they would protect the Jews

So yes it was complicated picture. However saving the Jews wasn't done for moral reasons. Mainly Red Army was advancing and people in Axis governments got worried about their future.

There was also a difference between common garden anti semitism and Nazi ideology. The episodes of collaboration in helping Nazis were built on a basis of of existing anti semitism in Europe.
 
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There were Estonian collaborators,


There is difference between states that fought alongside the Nazis and those taken over by them

Hungarian Jews survived to last months of the War. Hungary was independent country allied to the Nazis.

It run by right wing government drawn from the traditional elites. But not hard line anti Semitic like Nazis.

It was only at near end of war that Hitler ordered the German military to take over. He was afraid that Hungary was trying to do a deal to surrender to the Americans/ British.

German military presence forced a change of government that included those who would support deporting Jews


Hitler personally tried to get Admiral Horthy the head of Hungary to get on with it and help get rid of the Jews.

By that time they were bargaining chips. Some wanted to do deal with US to surrender saying they would protect the Jews

So yes it was complicated picture. However saving the Jews wasn't done for moral reasons. Mainly Red Army was advancing and people in Axis governments got worried about their future.

There was also a difference between common garden anti semitism and Nazi ideology. The episodes of collaboration in helping Nazis were built on a basis of of existing anti semitism in Europe.
Sorry, I don't know how I got that idea about Estonia. I read something only very recently but I must have skimmed it too fast and got hold of the wrong end of the stick.
 
I believe that not all the states that fought alongside the Germans against Russia took part in these killings. Estonia and Finland, in particular, resisted any such pressure. Bulgaria, too, never actually deported its own Jewish population. Eastern Europe's involvement with Germany in WW2 is not straightforward.
Some Finnish soldiers were involved in the murder of Jews when fighting alongside the Germans in Ukraine. Finland to probe troops’ alleged role in the Holocaust. However, the Finnish army whilst allied with Germany against the USSR had several hundred Jewish soldiers several of whom were awarded the Iron Cross The Finnish army also had a battle-field synagogue.
Astonishing Story of Survival by Jews of Finland
 
Given that my reading of Mayer book was that the Nazis were not against "business". They worked well up to end of war with big German business. The economy of the occupied Eastern Europe was settling down to be about slave labour camps with German firm setting up factories around them. SS under Himmler were vital for this. SS wasn't just a military organisation / quasi military. It was also setting itself up to be economic organisation. Not anti existing large firm but setting up a system they could operate in. If the Nazi state had survived the SS would have been an economic player in their own right. Himmler was setting up , with Hitler blessing, a state within a state imo.

Mayer sort of indicates where a settled Nazi state was going.

Its quite staggering the business that Mayer says were involved in slave labour. BMW for example.

Given that Hitler wasn't keen on modern day capitalism , according to Mayer, unless it was about making armanents. He didn't want a overseas Empire like Britain . He wanted to take over Eastern Europe to build a state of sturdy colonising German farmers. An economy that meant Germany could feed itself. He was not a supporter of capitalist globalisation.

More about making Germany self sufficient within its enlarged borders.

TBF I am not sure about this bit - the thing with Hitler was that its very difficult to say whether he actually had a vision of what the post-war Nazi state would have been like (structurally, anyway) or a plan to achieve it.

In that respect he seems to have been more interested in setting very general goals and then relying on his underlings to compete amongst themselves to deliver what they thought he wanted, leading them to interfere in each other's sectors to gain favour (which was also something Hitler wanted to happen) . Himmler did deliver a lot of what he wanted, but I am not sure whether that would have resulted in an SS-state after the war; if anything the danger that state would pose to Hitler would probably have resulted in it being attacked (with Hitler's blessing) by other underlings and dismantled.
 
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