Hold your nose and vote Labour?

[Pickman's model]

If the current government had a policy of machine gunning small boats, then I feel certain that Sir Keir Starmer would decry that inhuman policy but would not commit to revoking it.

He'd say using 30mm or similar cannon would be more efficient

 

[Pickman's model]

We can look at history and compare outcomes. I don't know what labour's current policies because i've not seen their election manifesto. We can look at how Yvette Cooper has opposed Braverman's neo fascist incompetence and lawbreaking. I don't believe that, however badly Labour might end up treating refugees, it will never be as awful as Braverman and Jenrick. It wasn't labour MP's blaming children for being the victims of child traffickers snatching them from under HO protection.

If you look at the number of deaths resulting from tory and Labour policies since the 1945 election Labour are er head and shoulders above the tories in number of deaths they've caused, starting off with more than a million in india/Pakistan at the time of partition. So you say Labour will never be as bad as the tories. In some ways they're rather worse.

 

[Elpenor]

Labours current position is to enact the same policies as the Tories but feeling sad about doing it

 

[hitmouse]

In the context of the electoral cycle and providing an alternative to voting for the least worst option, no it hasn't. Winning strike action is great, but it doesn't speak to the proposition we are disucssing. So all those actions will continue in the context of the worst possible political backdrop.

Your final question is a false dichotomy and I never said you should do one or the other. Show me where any of the actions you have mentioned have resulted in a better alternative to the Tories than what we currently have?

You said "it hasn't achieved anything", which is what I was taking issue with. Obviously I'm not particularly recommending voting for the GMB or whoever instead of voting Labour, not least because of the fact that they're not standing.

As to resulting in a better alternative, if it wasn't for trade unions built up through that kind of work we probably wouldn't have had the LRC in the first place. I'm not particularly invested in electoralism anyway, so I'm not claiming to have a fully worked-out strategy for how you get a new and improved electoral party, but I reckon if you wanted a third party that wasn't built on sand it would have to be the formal organisational expression of that kind of grassroots activity anyway.

And thinking about it, grassroots strike action and community campaigning can force Labour (or indeed Tory) councils to make better decisions than they would have done otherwise, so I think there is a case to be made that they do indeed result in "a better alternative to the tories", they can be the difference between, for instance, a Labour-controlled planning committee that acts in the interests of property developers and a Labour-controlled planning committee that has to pay attention to the needs and demands of local residents. Surely you must understand this?

 

[danny la rouge]

Starmer said "I think we're recruiting too many people from overseas into, for example, the health service."

Stephen Kinnock says Labour would also put asylum seekers on barges.

Labour don't say they'd do anything different on immigration, just that they'd be more efficient at it.

Starmer has supported stiffer sentences for protestors. He wants longer sentences for Just Stop Oil protestors than the Tories.

He doesn't oppose the crack down on protest, he wants it to be harsher.

Labour have refused to commit to the climate funding pledge made at COP26, drawing criticism from NGOs.

When approached by the Guardian, spokespeople for the shadow net zero and energy secretary, Ed Miliband, the shadow chancellor, Rachel Reeves, and the Labour leader all declined to commit to the funding pledge.

Labour are not to be trusted on climate change.

I'm not sure we can honestly say Labour are the "lesser" of two evils. Promising to be the more efficient of two evils is really not the same as lesser.

I don't see why I should vote in favour of either evil. I'm against evil.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Starmer got in by pretending not to be a right wing shit. And, if it weren’t for Corbyn, he’d look exactly the same as most Labour leaders (albeit a bit duller).

To me, that feels an argument in favour of Corbyn, and not just "holding your nose".

To demonstrate a contrast, another option, different ideas and possibilities. To show there is more beyond right-wing Tories and slightly-less-right-wing Labour.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Surely you must understand this?

Are you familiar with Wells?

 

[skyscraper101]

Starmer said "I think we're recruiting too many people from overseas into, for example, the health service."

Stephen Kinnock says Labour would also put asylum seekers on barges.

Labour don't say they'd do anything different on immigration, just that they'd be more efficient at it.

Starmer has supported stiffer sentences for protestors. He wants longer sentences for Just Stop Oil protestors than the Tories.

He doesn't oppose the crack down on protest, he wants it to be harsher.

Labour have refused to commit to the climate funding pledge made at COP26, drawing criticism from NGOs.

When approached by the Guardian, spokespeople for the shadow net zero and energy secretary, Ed Miliband, the shadow chancellor, Rachel Reeves, and the Labour leader all declined to commit to the funding pledge.

Labour are not to be trusted on climate change.

I'm not sure we can honestly say Labour are the "lesser" of two evils. Promising to be the more efficient of two evils is really not the same as lesser.

I don't see why I should vote in favour of either evil. I'm against evil.

Spunking cock it is then.

 

[danny la rouge]

Spunking cock it is then.

I can’t possibly predict my libido on polling day.

 

[zedr]

not voting labour for many of the reasons stated above. will be interested to see how starmer approaches trade unions if he gets in. have a feeling he'll want to be even more hard line than the tories for fear of the daily mail's headlines.

 

[belboid]

Are marginals and safe seats always marginals and safe seats? Or do once-safe seats sometimes become marginals or even lost, and how does that happen if so? They've got a tory MP in Don Valley now.

And? 1 racist old bloke in Don Valley is now more important than 100 voters in Sheffield Central (which was marginal for a little while). Neither changed because of relatively small numbers refusing to vote Labour for bein g to right wing. Long term demographics, Brexit & thst coaltion changed things.

Central nearly went because of the war (and the council to a much lesser extent). Labour didn’t become more anti war to put that right.

 

[Pickman's model]

not voting labour for many of the reasons stated above. will be interested to see how starmer approaches trade unions if he gets in. have a feeling he'll want to be even more hard line than the tories for fear of the daily mail's headlines.

i think he'll want to be even more hard line than the tories because he's a wanker.

 

[hitmouse]

Are you familiar with Wells?

Triumph of hope over experience, I think.

And? 1 racist old bloke in Don Valley is now more important than 100 voters in Sheffield Central (which was marginal for a little while). Neither changed because of relatively small numbers refusing to vote Labour for bein g to right wing. Long term demographics, Brexit & thst coaltion changed things.

Central nearly went because of the war (and the council to a much lesser extent). Labour didn’t become more anti war to put that right.

I didn't say that Labour lost Don Valley because of relatively small numbers refusing to vote Labour for being too right wing, but if relatively large numbers refused to vote Labour for (reasons including but not solely reducible to) being too pro-EU, and their votes are now more important as a result, then that illustrates the argument being made, right? Not to mention that my local seat is more Sheffield Central than Don Valley, which makes all the "YOU MUST VOTE LABOUR OR THE TORIES WILL WIN" moral blackmail a bit risible.

 

[gosub]

Personally got a choice between Dougie Alexander and the SNP treasurer that the dibble had a chat with..

 

[Dogsauce]

I’m secretly hoping that following them banning Corbyn from standing in Islington, he then goes and stands as an independent in Starner’s seat down the road. Goes head to head. That could be priceless.

 

[Knotted]

A decade+ of hopeless Labourism will likely prove to make a fertile ground for the far right.

 

[NoXion]

Starmer said "I think we're recruiting too many people from overseas into, for example, the health service."

Stephen Kinnock says Labour would also put asylum seekers on barges.

Labour don't say they'd do anything different on immigration, just that they'd be more efficient at it.

Starmer has supported stiffer sentences for protestors. He wants longer sentences for Just Stop Oil protestors than the Tories.

He doesn't oppose the crack down on protest, he wants it to be harsher.

Labour have refused to commit to the climate funding pledge made at COP26, drawing criticism from NGOs.

When approached by the Guardian, spokespeople for the shadow net zero and energy secretary, Ed Miliband, the shadow chancellor, Rachel Reeves, and the Labour leader all declined to commit to the funding pledge.

Labour are not to be trusted on climate change.

I'm not sure we can honestly say Labour are the "lesser" of two evils. Promising to be the more efficient of two evils is really not the same as lesser.

I don't see why I should vote in favour of either evil. I'm against evil.

Exactly, Starmer is a piece of shit who is trying to out-Tory the Tories. A vote for Starmer's Labour is a vote for turbo-Toryism.

I can't do that, and I would strongly recommend that anyone else who likes to think of themselves as a decent person does likewise.

 

[belboid]

Triumph of hope over experience, I think.

I didn't say that Labour lost Don Valley because of relatively small numbers refusing to vote Labour for being too right wing, but if relatively large numbers refused to vote Labour for (reasons including but not solely reducible to) being too pro-EU, and their votes are now more important as a result, then that illustrates the argument being made, right? Not to mention that my local seat is more Sheffield Central than Don Valley, which makes all the "YOU MUST VOTE LABOUR OR THE TORIES WILL WIN" moral blackmail a bit risible.

Good thing I've never said that then. I don't really care how you vote.

And, no, that doesn't illustrate anything of the kind. For one thing, Central was going LibDem (partly) for not being pro-EU enough. Plus, rather more importantly, those raising an objection to Labour policies had a party to vote for that could win. Not a situation we are Riley to find ourselves in.

I don't understand why anarchists get so worked up about it. One minute its 'voting changes nothing' the next its 'vote Labour and you're killing the working-class!' Make yer bloody minds up.

 

[hash tag]

Labour are not to be trusted on climate change.

Can any party be trusted on anything?

I’m secretly hoping that following them banning Corbyn from standing in Islington, he then goes and stands as an independent in Starner’s seat down the road. Goes head to head. That could be priceless.

The rumours are growing about him standing for Mayor of London.

 

[Sue]

The rumours are growing about him standing for Mayor of London.

Are they? All I've seen/heard is this:

Asked if he was considering a run for the mayoralty as an independent, Mr Corbyn told audience members: “Well let’s have a think about it, shall we?

“I want to see change in our society. I’m not disappearing, I’m not going away.

But then he also said this:

He was also asked if he was considering standing in his Islington North constituency as an independent, which he has represented since 1983.

Mr Corbyn said: “I’m very happy and very proud to be the MP for Islington North.

“I live in the area, I know large numbers of of people in the area.

“I have learned a great deal from the people I represent. I am available to represent the people if that is what they wish.”

So more a 'not specifically committing to anything' position than committing to standing/not standing for mayor or as an MP. (And the Standard does love to stir it so...)

Corbyn will ‘have a think’ about standing to be mayor of London

The former Labour leader spoke to an audience at Edinburgh Fringe

www.standard.co.uk

 

[danny la rouge]

Can any party be trusted on anything?

No.

 

[hash tag]

Mr Corbyn said: “I’m very happy and very proud to be the MP for Islington North.

This is present tense?

 

[Pickman's model]

Mr Corbyn said: “I’m very happy and very proud to be the MP for Islington North.

This is present tense?

yes, otherwise he'd have said 'i was' or 'i will be' or some other tense, several of which i am sure maomao will mention if he sees this

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't understand why anarchists get so worked up about it. One minute its 'voting changes nothing' the next its 'vote Labour and you're killing the working-class!' Make yer bloody minds up.

But the "anarchists" aren't getting worked up. Most of them have stated - multiple times - that they don't really see voting or not voting as that big a deal.

The people getting worked up and calling people Tory supporters are the lesser evilists.

 

[Karl Masks]

Stephen Kinnock says Labour would also put asylum seekers on barges.

He didn't

Labour don't say they'd do anything different on immigration, just that they'd be more efficient at it.

This is false, as your misrepresentation of Kinnocks' SKY interview shows.

I don't see why I should vote in favour of either evil. I'm against evil.

Voting for the spunking cock party won't stop evil

 

[danny la rouge]

He didn't

He did.

This is false, as your misrepresentation of Kinnocks' SKY interview shows.

It isn’t.

Voting for the spunking cock party won't stop evil

Voting evil won’t stop evil.

 

[danny la rouge]

Labour says they would keep asylum seeker barges if they gained power

Stephen Kinnock said the idea made him 'deeply unhappy' as it was the last thing they wanted to do.

metro.co.uk

Starmer: Migrants are not answer to NHS crisis

The Labour leader wants to fix the health service staffing crisis by hiring more people from the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[NoXion]

He didn't

He did.

Indeed he did: Labour would use barges to temporarily house asylum seekers, says Stephen Kinnock

 

[Pickman's model]

Labour says they would keep asylum seeker barges if they gained power

Stephen Kinnock said the idea made him 'deeply unhappy' as it was the last thing they wanted to do.

metro.co.uk

Starmer: Migrants are not answer to NHS crisis

The Labour leader wants to fix the health service staffing crisis by hiring more people from the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

it's wicked to mock the afflicted

 

[belboid]

But the "anarchists" aren't getting worked up. Most of them have stated - multiple times - that they don't really see voting or not voting as that big a deal.

The people getting worked up and calling people Tory supporters are the lesser evilists.

The ones saying you support everything labour say/dop if you vote for them are doing. Not sure anyone other than Wells is saying non voters are default Tories either.