Hold your nose and vote Labour?

[danny la rouge]

That's now twice you've dodged the question: What is your alternative to what Kinnock proposed?

I answered above.

 

[redsquirrel]

The ones saying you support everything labour say/dop if you vote for them are doing.

So Danny? Who has in the past stated that he's voted - so non-voting is hardly some sort of political red line

Not sure anyone other than Wells is saying non voters are default Tories either.

A380 did explicitly

in 2024 under the existing system then if you vote anything but Labour or don’t vote you are supporting the Tories ( or their yellow scum former allies) . Now that isn’t pleasant and mat be unpalatable and definitely should not be the case; but it is true.

And while no one else on this thread has stated it explicitly, from what's been said on other threads I suspect there's a few more verging on it.

 

[NoXion]

Concern me? Yes it does, it's fucking infuriating. The whole of electoralism is infuriating (especially with our voting system). They will need pushing by working-class movements to do something rather better (to say the least). But that doesn't mean they're exactly the same. Not being different enough os not the same as not being different.

I'm all for pushing the Labour party leftwards. I don't think that can be done by voting for them in its current form. They will be able to point to those votes as an endorsement of trying to out-Tory the Tories, even if that isn't actually true. The pressure needs to come from outside of the electoral system.

 

[Karl Masks]

i notice he says scrapping the Rwanda plan (great) and diverting the money into cross-border policing to stop the smugglers. This last is complete bullshit. The smugglers could be closed down overnight by providing legal safe routes to claim asylum.

Labour is saying they will reform legal routes for refugees. What this means in practice is another matter,

 

[Karl Masks]

I answered above.

Link?

 

[belboid]

So Danny? Who has in the past stated that he's voted - so non-voting is hardly some sort of political red line

I don't think he is the only one by any means (if he did say so, my comment certainly wasn't directed at him in particular). It's been said many times by many.

A380 did explicitly

And while no one else on this thread has stated it explicitly, from what's been said on other threads I suspect there's a few more verging on it.

So two people. Woot. And you can suspect what you like, but I can suspect what I like about the anarchists, so isn't that the same thing really?

 

[teqniq]

Labour is saying they will reform legal routes for refugees. What this means in practice is another matter,

I really don't know why you've bothered quoting me. I'm commenting on what Kinnock actually said in the vid. What I and others have put forward is a completely viable solution but he's not said that, Tougher policing, yes. Legal safe routes? Not a word. Would you care to provide a link to where Labour have said what you assert because I've just looked and the only thing that comes close is a hysterical Express link.

 

[_Russ_]

alternatives to what?

Jesus fucking christ on a trandem......shirley nobody is that poor a reader???

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't think he is the only one by any means (if he did say so, my comment certainly wasn't directed at him in particular). It's been said many times by many.

I haven’t given my opinion on this thread about how other people should vote or whether they should vote. I’ve given my reasons I won’t be voting Labour, in answer to the general query about holding my nose etc.

I haven’t decided whether I will vote. It won’t be for Labour, SNP, Tories or Lib Dem, though. Will I bother turning out to vote Green? I seriously doubt it. But I’m not definitely ruling it out at this stage.

 

[danny la rouge]

Link?

Well you quoted one of them.

 

[redsquirrel]

If you are politically aware enough to make an argument about voting, then you are politically aware enough to be responsible for the consewuences of your decision. I don't think there is anyone here that actually supports Tory policies, but your inaction will facilitate a tory return. That's simply how the system works. You can do what you like, except cry about the consequences and blame other people when you choose a course of action that rejects the least worst option. The right has power in this country, it is a largely conservative country, they are in power right now. All you are doing is throwing people onto the bonfire of ideology.

Everything here has been explained to you many many times over the years. But you'll continue to refuse to engage with it because it's not about politics it's about providing you with a smug feeling.

But for any readers.
First, for most posters/voters the consequences of (not) voting are probably nothing - most of us live in (very) safe seats.

Second, what is being advocated a vote for Labour, a vote against the Tories, or just a vote in general? Those are different political positions. If your position is to keep the Tories out then are you going to advocate a UKIP/Reform/etc vote in seats where they are best placed to defeat the Tories? (Admittedly probably a hypothetical in 2024) What about the LibDems? The Greens?
A380 has been clear that they are advocating that anyone in England that votes anything other than Labour is supporting the Tories. A stupid position, but at least a clear one.

Third, it is typically farcical of you to shout about ideology when you're the one insisting that anyone who does not do what you want (which is not actually clear) is supporting the Tories. I, and most posters on this thread, aren't being ideology about voting. I see it as largely apolitical, others see it as tactical, many have stated that there intention to vote is based on the local situation.

Fourth, the political consequence of your ideological lesser evilism is to strengthen the Labour right (and LibDems etc). If a party can always guarantee its vote coming out it will take it for granted. As an anarchist I'm not bothered by electoral politics but for social democrats/democratic socialists there's a perfectly sensible tactical argument that not voting Labour may help push it left. Frankly I don't think that is really on the cards at the present time. But the defeats, and lack of engagement of voters, for the Labour and Democratic Party in 2015/2016 clearly fed into the move of both parties to the left.

Fifth, as has been pointed out to you the UK is not a particularly conservative country. Economically most voters are to the left of all main parties, socially it is more of a mix but voters are in some respects more socially liberal than politicians. And certainly the UK is much more socially liberal than many other countries.

 

[danny la rouge]

Fifth, as has been pointed out to you the UK is not a particularly conservative country. Economically most voters are to the left of all main parties, socially it is more of a mix but voters are in some respects more socially liberal than politicians. And certainly the UK is much more socially liberal than many other countries.

This is an important point.

Basically politicians address the handful of swing voters in the handful of swing constituencies, mainly in the South East of England. And the focus groups that inform them what that small number of people think. That’s what party political discourse in the UK amounts to.

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't think he is the only one by any means (if he did say so, my comment certainly wasn't directed at him in particular). It's been said many times by many.


So two people. Woot. And you can suspect what you like, but I can suspect what I like about the anarchists, so isn't that the same thing really?

Apart from most of the anarchists - myself, Rob Ray, Serge - have explicitly stated that they are not worked up about people voting.

 

[Karl Masks]

Well you quoted one of them.

Again, link? I haven't quoted you saying anything of the sort. I don't know what you think youv'e said. So just link. Not difficult

 

[danny la rouge]

Again, link? I haven't quoted you saying anything of the sort. I don't know what you think youv'e said. So just link. Not difficult

Well, it is difficult. Because of my disabilities. But I’ll have look.

 

[danny la rouge]

This is what Labour could do instead.

The way to engage me is not to make up ridiculous positions for me and then keep prodding my chest.

What Kinnock could have said is something like NoXion suggested.

Yes it is.

Your following paragraph doesn’t parse. I don’t know what you’re saying. But you appear to be making up what you think I believe.

For clarity: I think both the Tory and Labour immigration policies are racist, inhumane, and more to the point, pointless. You don’t stop migration at the English Channel, this side or that. What we see now on the English Channel is just a beginning as climate, economic and warfare processes accelerate. Treating boats on the Channel as a discrete issue is pointless. It cannot be separated from the context.

Labour could say something along those lines if they wanted. But they don’t, because they are trying to appear “serious” on immigration for the audience they are trying to impress. Not only that, once in power they will continue to act “serious”. By which I mean short sighted and racist.

 

[Karl Masks]

Jesus fucking christ on a trandem......shirley nobody is that poor a reader???

You said in a few years labour will be looking for alternatives. I asked for what?

 

[Karl Masks]

Well, it is difficult. Because of my disabilities. But I’ll have look.

You dishonest prick

 

[danny la rouge]

You dishonest prick

Have a deep breath and a chamomile tea, then lose your log in. Cheers.

 

[redsquirrel]

You dishonest prick

Just to be clear here what exactly are are you claiming that Danny is being dishonest about? His disabilities?

 

[andysays]

You dishonest prick

Now you're just being a cunt.

 

[redsquirrel]

Actually fuck it.
If it was a new poster I might just give them a chance to explain but this is the same sort of nasty shit that's got you banned in the past so go fuck yourself Wells.

 

[danny la rouge]

And for the record, pretty much everything is difficult for me.

 

[Karl Masks]

And for the record, pretty much everything is difficult for me.

Have a deep breath and a chamomile tea, then lose your log in. Cheers.

You were quite happy to tell me that you provided an answer, you haven't. I asked you to provide a link, you responded with some cryptic nonsense, now you're trying to engage in some guilt trip bullshit while you were happy and able enough to post. This is pretty rancid behaviour, so you can fuck right off you lying cunt

 

[Elpenor]

I get the impression that it won’t be Danny who fucks right off

 

[danny la rouge]

You were quite happy to tell me that you provided an answer, you haven't. I asked you to provide a link, you responded with some cryptic nonsense, now you're trying to engage in some guilt trip bullshit while you were happy and able enough to post. This is pretty rancid behaviour, so you can fuck right off you lying cunt

I answered the question twice and I provided links. Before your stupid outburst about me being “dishonest”. Would you like me to provide a link to the links?

Here: Hold your nose and vote Labour?

You have serious issues that you need to deal with.

 

[redsquirrel]

You were quite happy to tell me that you provided an answer, you haven't. I asked you to provide a link, you responded with some cryptic nonsense, now you're trying to engage in some guilt trip bullshit while you were happy and able enough to post. This is pretty rancid behaviour, so you can fuck right off you lying cunt

You've been banned from here however many times for this shit. Does that not give you any sort of pause? Any sort of reflection about the awfulness of your actions?

I mean maybe, just maybe that saying “If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole” applies. You owe Danny, and lots of other posters, an apology.

 

[Sasaferrato]

You were quite happy to tell me that you provided an answer, you haven't. I asked you to provide a link, you responded with some cryptic nonsense, now you're trying to engage in some guilt trip bullshit while you were happy and able enough to post. This is pretty rancid behaviour, so you can fuck right off you lying cunt

Post reported.

Second in twenty years. (Maybe third, I forget).

 

[editor]

You were quite happy to tell me that you provided an answer, you haven't. I asked you to provide a link, you responded with some cryptic nonsense, now you're trying to engage in some guilt trip bullshit while you were happy and able enough to post. This is pretty rancid behaviour, so you can fuck right off you lying cunt

Warning issued and you're now banned from this thread.

 

[Sasaferrato]

You dishonest prick

You can accuse Danny of many things, but dishonesty is not one of them.

I think you need to fuck off, preferably permanently.