Hold your nose and vote Labour?

[Knotted]

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"What's the alternative to voting" is the least interesting question you can ask. You know the answer to it. What you could be asking is how to organise in and around your areas of potential influence, a question with a million answers, many of which are freely available across endless blogs, vlogs, online libraries etc etc. Until we stop obsessing over the electoral question we keep doing this merry-go-round, and it gets us nowhere.

Great picture. Just trying to make out what the two fellas in the background are?

 

[tony.c]

No council elections in London. Next London council elections will be May 2026.
May 2024 we will have the Greater London Assembly and London Mayoral election - I'll probably vote for Lord Buckethead as first choice again.
In next GE I would vote for my current Labour MP if she is candidate as she is ok. I wouldn't vote for any of Starmer's acolytes.

 

[A380]

Let me know how relying on voting Liberal then Labour since the 1860s without working class activity works out for you . Nearly every major reform we have had has been on the back of working class struggle , even the vote .

Indeed. No NHS, no universal education no welfare state, no equalities legislation. All won by working class struggle and delivered or vastly expanded in the case of the last two by Labour governments.

So why won’t you use your vote?

 

[Rob Ray]

Great picture. Just trying to make out what the two fellas in the background are?

One's "sky pilot" which is old IWW slang for wannabe intellectual spokespersons for the workers, memorably used in 11 Blind Leaders. The other one is "craft unionism" I think.

 

[furluxor]

This is the wrong question. If there's a raging fire in my house I'm not putting it out by throwing less flammable fuel on it, I need to get a bucket of water. If the water isn't there then I need to go find some, rather than waste my time choosing what furniture I want to sacrifice next.


I understand you perfectly. I'm saying this approach is short-sighted and ultimately plays into the hands of the ruling class, which has been successfully executing a long-term plan for the last half century that, as we saw with Corbyn, has fully incorporated "least worst option" voting into its system to the point that genuine challenges from that direction are near-impossible to mount.

The problem with your analogy is, you found that the only source of water is you pissing into the fire, which is not going to put it out either. I think "least worst option" is what we've always had with the British system of voting. It would take serious electoral reform and community organising to change this, neither of which stops you (or me) from taking direct action, as well.

This is possibly an argument for rethinking attitudes to leftist entryism, it's not an argument for voting for Starmer.

I had to look up what entryism is and I'm left very confused, as Labour is the largest left-wing party we have, and the only real challenger to Cons. What did you mean?

Sorry but I haven’t seen any evidence that the Tories are afraid of him whatsoever. They might well be scared of losing the election, many of them their lucrative careers and back ganders however the sinking ship of Sunsk and co have effectively self destructed .

It would have been at least honest if Starmer had said ‘ ok we need a different strategy ‘ and a take down of Corbyn and his manifesto however Starmer’s election platform was pretty much a defence of large elements of the 2019 manifesto with clips of him being at the Wapping printers dispute and supporting the miners plus some PR guff about him being forensic .

Here we are in 2023 and effectively the new ‘strategy ‘ , introduced by creeping steps, is a tepid mix of ‘we can be trusted with your money , keep your powder try , let’s not raise expectations ‘ with the party machine dominated by Blairites. None of this is of course is going to deliver any significant improvements to w/class lives .

Well, I have. But I broadly agree with you, this whole thing makes me very uneasy and even if it is a winning strategy (which is by no means guaranteed) I'm not sure it's worth it. This sort of thing tends to corrupt people and it's bad for the voters' morale. Unlike you, I'm hoping for the best but imho our differences are more of outlook than political.

 

[Rob Ray]

The problem with your analogy is, you found that the only source of water is you pissing into the fire, which is not going to put it out either.

You didn't understand what was being said at all.

 

[Cid]

I had to look up what entryism is and I'm left very confused, as Labour is the largest left-wing party we have, and the only real challenger to Cons. What did you mean?

Well if you do a ctrl-f for 'militant' on the wikipedia page for entryism it might give you a clue.

 

[The39thStep]

Indeed. No NHS, no universal education no welfare state, no equalities legislation. All won by working class struggle and delivered or vastly expanded in the case of the last two by Labour governments.

So why won’t you use your vote?

I’ve already explained why .
It’s tactical not a point of principle , I’ve voted for the Labour manifesto in 2017 and 2019 but I’m not voting for this sack of spineless shite .

 

[Riklet]

i live on a fairly working class street for my area, it is about half social housing but posher at one end with new builds. Had Tories Lib Dems and Green all leaflet. Lib Dems currently hold the 2 seats. The council bod tbf was busy arguing with a neighbour a few weeks back and ive seen him around before. Nada and niltch from Labour til now. Certainly no door knocking.




How can I get excited and vote for this wibble. This isnt my politics. This isnt good enough. There's nothing real here. It is the messaging partly for sure but it's also the vision. This is city where students and tourists are king and the locals are being forced out and taken for granted and treated as cash cows.

 

[Rob Ray]

Let me know how that works out for you.

You say this as though you aren't planning to be involved. I hope this is not the case?

 

[maomao]

If we're talking about council elections I'll be voting labour for local reasons. I'll be reminding myself that the local council has fuck all to do with Starmer though

 

[redsquirrel]

Let me know how relying on voting Liberal then Labour since the 1860s without working class activity works out for you . Nearly every major reform we have had has been on the back of working class struggle , even the vote .

I mean this is the key point and there is nothing 'revolutionary pure' about it.

The LP did not gift the NHS, the welfare state, improvements to working conditions - workers won them from capital through struggle. Sometimes in the face of the LP.

 

[moochedit]

Don't know who is standing for my council ward but Labour are fairly safe in cov and there is usually a left of labour candidate so i'll probably vote for them.

That said my local labour mp zara sultana is probably on starmers shit list.

 

[Voley]

the thought of the Tories getting in again is unbearable so will vote for whoever is necessary. which is Labour for me. they would probably get my vote anyway.

Yeah it's anyone but the Tories for me too.

 

[Yossarian]

If I found myself in a swing seat where there was a genuine chance of seeing the headline "Tory candidate wins by a single vote" then I would consider voting for Starmer & co, otherwise they can go fuck themselves.

 

[Leafster]

Don't know who is standing for my council ward but Labour are fairly safe in cov and there is usually a left of labour candidate so i'll probably vote for them.

That said my local labour mp zara sultana is probably on starmers shit list.

I guess it's because of where I live (Surrey), but there are never any candidates to the left of labour around here. Sometimes there aren't even any labour candidates. There are often candidates to the right of the Tories though.

 

[moochedit]

I guess it's because of where I live (Surrey), but there are never any candidates to the left of labour around here. Sometimes there aren't even any labour candidates. There are often candidates to the right of the Tories though.

Yeah the smaller parties will target seats. We do get right of tories here as well.

 

[The39thStep]

The problem with your analogy is, you found that the only source of water is you pissing into the fire, which is not going to put it out either. I think "least worst option" is what we've always had with the British system of voting. It would take serious electoral reform and community organising to change this, neither of which stops you (or me) from taking direct action, as well.



I had to look up what entryism is and I'm left very confused, as Labour is the largest left-wing party we have, and the only real challenger to Cons. What did you mean?



Well, I have. But I broadly agree with you, this whole thing makes me very uneasy and even if it is a winning strategy (which is by no means guaranteed) I'm not sure it's worth it. This sort of thing tends to corrupt people and it's bad for the voters' morale. Unlike you, I'm hoping for the best but imho our differences are more of outlook than political.

I don't think that I said anything about not hoping for the best although I do tend to agree with our Italian friend ie pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will

 

[redcogs]

i believe it would be preferable to trap my nob in the door - so No is my answer.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yeah it's anyone but the Tories for me too.

Yeah, there is no sitting on the fence, you're just giving the tories more time to wreck the country.

 

[chilango]

Yeah, there is no sitting on the fence, you're just giving the tories more time to wreck the country.

Yeah! Time to let Labour have a go too!

 

[teqniq]

Can't vote as there's no undecided option which pretty much sums me up right now. My MP seems to be a generally decent bloke, Kevin Brennan and it's a Labour safe seat, if I do vote for him it will be for the man himself and not the Labour party.

 

[Elpenor]

Not going to vote next week as I’m away and didn’t have time to organise a postal vote as it meant printing a form in a short space of time.

But probably wouldn’t have bothered. Think it’s a libdem / Tory bunfight at council level. There’s some sort of local alliance standing in my ward but they look suspiciously anti-LTN / NIMBY to me

 

[A380]

I mean this is the key point and there is nothing 'revolutionary pure' about it.

The LP did not gift the NHS, the welfare state, improvements to working conditions - workers won them from capital through struggle. Sometimes in the face of the LP.

Where did I say it was a gift. But the victory didn’t result in these things magically popping into existence.

They had to be delivered by a mechanism. And that mechanism was a Labour government.

 

[Rob Ray]

They had to be delivered by a mechanism. And that mechanism was a Labour government.

Or a Tory government. Both implemented portions of what became the welfare State. Why do you think that was?

 

[A380]

Or a Tory government. Both implemented portions of what became the welfare State. Why do you think that was?

The Tories did not deliver a welfare state.

This is the problem with revolutionary magical thinking. It ignores delivery.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yeah! Time to let Labour have a go too!

I'm not sure they have the likes of Boris Johnson, Liz Truss or Suella Braverman...

 

[Rob Ray]

The Tories did not deliver a welfare state.

This is the problem with revolutionary magical thinking. It ignores delivery.

But they were planning to before Labour did, and were only prevented from implementing their version (admittedly a less radical one in its initial form) by an election. So why was that? You keep calling this magical thinking, but the Tories repeatedly did things you suggest could only happen under Labour throughout the middle part of the 20th century. House building, extensions to the welfare state, a relatively high tax burden on the rich, labour rights, acceptance of the post-war consensus etc etc. In fact they were more left economically than the current Labour Party right up to the advent of Thatcher. Why?

 

[Kev424242]

If I had the option, then the TUSC would get my vote. Or Corbyn, if I move to Islington (ain't happening!) and he stands as an independent. Otherwise spoiled ballot paper.

 

[Dystopiary]

Labour are not left wing at all. It was them that decided to go to war on the Iraqi people on a false pretext. Later on, they brought in catastrophic "reforms" to the welfare state. What they initiated was literally deadly, worse than anything the Tories had done to the ws since its inception. Iain Duncan Smith, Jacob Ress Mogg et al were simply continuing down that path which Labour paved. Every vote they get tells them that they can do whatever they like, sink to any depths and be rewarded for it.

The whole rotten system is what needs to change; Rob Ray's fire analogy is apt.