Hold your nose and vote Labour?

[tommers]

Fuck knows. Probably just avoid the whole thing tbh.

 

[furluxor]

I think you're kidding yourself. The Labour Party isn't an alternative to anything, it's the same long-term process of transferring power upstairs, clad in a different tie. The "alternative" is direct action and the presentation of a credible threat to business as usual.

And how is that going for you? I think you misunderstand me. I'm not drafting a strategy for the future here, I'm working with what we have at the moment. Direct action can move things in the right direction (at most) or spark a discussion (at least) but the democracy we're living under is all about indirect action. You can choose to opt out but it carries the risk of giving free reign to the political right.

Strategy? The price of his three years of positioning , playing it safe , not committing to anything , let the Tories trip themselves up tactics is that most voters don’t know what he stands for ( aside from some vague perception that he thinks Sunak doesn’t want child molesters jailed)

Well, Tories seem to be afraid of him, for one. Labour approval ratings are not bad, I hear. Last election was a massacre. I think Corbyn was unfairly treated by both the left and the right, however I can see how someone would go 'okay, we desperately need a different strategy here'.

 

[kabbes]

I’m genuinely confused in what way people think that Starmer’s Labour Party, held to account by a rabidly right-wing opposition, will be a better government for them, even by a whisker. What are the policies that will make life better for average people? Or even better-off-than-average-but-not-rich people? What have his acts been that encourage this optimism?

Was it when he went to the CBI conference to tell them all how tough he was about migration?
Was it when he hosted BAE Systems Execs in his office to make sure Britain remain a top arms exporter?
Was it when he built bridges with The Sun, while The Spectator made him “politician of the year”?

I think those who just want to be tribal and cheer a Labour victory over the Tories, no matter the cost, are really underestimating how much damage a right-wing Labour Party can do in government, given that the opposition they will be responding to will be those on the right, not the left. There will be literally nothing stopping them from being as anti-working class, as racist and as authoritarian as they want. I would rather that Starmer’s approach to Labour be discredited and ripped up, while a lame-duck Tory government or coalition be forced into inaction for 5 years.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

It's a hard no from me. Fuck them cunts.

What they said.

Regards the locals next month, need to have a better look at the Indy lot.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I think those who just want to be tribal and cheer a Labour victory over the Tories, no matter the cost, are really underestimating how much damage a right-wing Labour Party can do in government, given that the opposition they will be responding to will be those on the right, not the left. There will be literally nothing stopping them from being as anti-working class, as racist and as authoritarian as they want. I would rather that Starmer’s approach to Labour be discredited and ripped up, while a lame-duck Tory government or coalition be forced into inaction for 5 years.

Agreed. I also think that a more right-wing Labour party enables more right wing Labour councils and they really can do plenty of damage.

 

[redsquirrel]

Unless you are actively working for a revolution and believe you aren’t that far from success ( or you have the Bader Minehoff view that as a good revolutionary you have to provoke the state into making things worse for the working class to precipitate revolution) then it’s difficult to argue practically against it.

Twaddle.

First, most people's vote are not going to be relevant to any outcome, so why waste one's time.

Second, voting for the Labour Party under any and all circumstances allows, in fact encourages it, to move to the right. People voting against Labour, or not voting at all will not necessarily mean it moves left but may push it in that direction.
Both Corbyn's victory and the move to the left by the Democrats came about because the parties realised that they needed to give their base voters something after suffering losses.
I don't think the chance of Stamer moving left if Labour lost a lot of council seats to, say the Greens, is very high. But it is a damn sight more likely than if people vote Labour.

--------------------------
Re the OP definitely won't vote Labour. Frankly I was not going to bother voting at all but got a postal vote through for the upcoming council elections so voted TUSC.

 

[NoXion]

I cannot vote for Labour while neoliberal cunts like Starmer are in charge. Spoiled ballot for me most likely, if I turn up at all.

 

[Rob Ray]

And how is that going for you?

This is the wrong question. If there's a raging fire in my house I'm not putting it out by throwing less flammable fuel on it, I need to get a bucket of water. If the water isn't there then I need to go find some, rather than waste my time choosing what furniture I want to sacrifice next.

I'm not drafting a strategy for the future here, I'm working with what we have at the moment.

I understand you perfectly. I'm saying this approach is short-sighted and ultimately plays into the hands of the ruling class, which has been successfully executing a long-term plan for the last half century that, as we saw with Corbyn, has fully incorporated "least worst option" voting into its system to the point that genuine challenges from that direction are near-impossible to mount.

 

[Chz]

We're not having council elections here this year. But if we were, it's traditionally a LD/Tory stronghold and the poor performance of both has seen some Labour councillors get in (not in my ward though). I've met them and they're really good people interested in local issues, so yeah - I'd vote for them. But I vote local elections on local issues - it's seen me vote for all the major parties (and several minor ones) at one time or another, sometimes just because one particular person is great, despite their allegiances.

The GE is a different matter entirely. Used to hold my nose and vote LD here to keep the Tory candidate out (and the LD guy played a good Local MP), but the Tories are in here now and I think voting Labour is the only hope of a turnaround since the old LD guy retired.

Haven't general elections always been about the least of the evils? Are we not kidding ourselves it's ever been anything but that?

 

[Dystopiary]

No.

 

[Lurdan]

It's a hard no from me. Fuck them cunts.

Oh behave. Do you really think that's an appropriate response?

I wouldn't touch them with somebody else's.

 

[A380]

I’m genuinely confused in what way people think that Starmer’s Labour Party, held to account by a rabidly right-wing opposition, will be a better government for them, even by a whisker. What are the policies that will make life better for average people? Or even better-off-than-average-but-not-rich people? What have his acts been that encourage this optimism?

Was it when he went to the CBI conference to tell them all how tough he was about migration?
Was it when he hosted BAE Systems Execs in his office to make sure Britain remain a top arms exporter?
Was it when he built bridges with The Sun, while The Spectator made him “politician of the year”?

I think those who just want to be tribal and cheer a Labour victory over the Tories, no matter the cost, are really underestimating how much damage a right-wing Labour Party can do in government, given that the opposition they will be responding to will be those on the right, not the left. There will be literally nothing stopping them from being as anti-working class, as racist and as authoritarian as they want. I would rather that Starmer’s approach to Labour be discredited and ripped up, while a lame-duck Tory government or coalition be forced into inaction for 5 years.

So your alternative for the years 2024 to 2030 is?

 

[Rob Ray]

So your alternative for the years 2024 to 2030 is?

"What's the alternative to voting" is the least interesting question you can ask. You know the answer to it. What you could be asking is how to organise in and around your areas of potential influence, a question with a million answers, many of which are freely available across endless blogs, vlogs, online libraries etc etc. Until we stop obsessing over the electoral question we keep doing this merry-go-round, and it gets us nowhere.

 

[chilango]

So your alternative for the years 2024 to 2030 is?

There is no alternative available at the ballot box right here, right now.

 

[A380]

No it isn't

Maybe you don't remember the 1995 nus conference - doubt you were there. But at that conference a Labour students motion on student financial support passed, moving the nus away from their longstanding position of a return to 1979 level grants and access to benefits, to a let's discuss alternatives position. So it was no surprise to me when the Blair government introduced tuition fees. That's what Labour governments do, they do things the tories won't. Wait and see the first year of the next Labour government and see how quickly they can become worse than the tories

They also build hospitals ( with shit PFI agreements) but there are new hospitals and schools) again with shit funding arrangements but there are new schools. That’s new hospitals and schools that wouldn’t exist if there had been a 3rd Major term. Yes there are massive issues but communities still have those things.

I can’t be doing with this level of ‘revolutionary purity’ saw way to much of it growing up, from people more organised, with far more resources and often more intellectual rigour than any of the current movements…

But I’ll ask you the same question as I have asked two other posters on here that I respect. What is your plan for the years 2024 to 2030?

No one has answered yet.

 

[Fez909]

Here's how I would vote, depending on where I lived:

In a safe Labour seat: The most socialist party who is not Labour
In a Labour/Tory marginal: Labour
In a safe Tory seat: The most socialist party who is not Labour
In a Tory/Libdem marginal: The most socialist party who is not Labour

 

[A380]

View attachment 372193

"What's the alternative to voting" is the least interesting question you can ask.

Indeed. But it’s not either /or.

 

[planetgeli]

PC have won here ever since I've lived here but their MP beat up his wife and got thrown out of the party. PC aren't in a good way in general and that plus him possibly standing as an independent makes it a big Labour possible seat.

Like fuck will I vote for Starmer.

 

[Cid]

And how is that going for you? I think you misunderstand me. I'm not drafting a strategy for the future here, I'm working with what we have at the moment. Direct action can move things in the right direction (at most) or spark a discussion (at least) but the democracy we're living under is all about indirect action. You can choose to opt out but it carries the risk of giving free reign to the political right.



Well, Tories seem to be afraid of him, for one. Labour approval ratings are not bad, I hear. Last election was a massacre. I think Corbyn was unfairly treated by both the left and the right, however I can see how someone would go 'okay, we desperately need a different strategy here'.

This is possibly an argument for rethinking attitudes to leftist entryism, it's not an argument for voting for Starmer.

 

[chilango]

So your alternative for the years 2024 to 2030 is?

I'll vote Green in the locals, they are an, ever so slight, left(ish)ward drag on the local Labour council.

In the General? We'll see. Can't see such an option (however marginal) being on offer.

 

[maomao]

Indeed. But it’s not either /or.

Indeed. We can abstain.

 

[Rob Ray]

I can’t be doing with this level of ‘revolutionary purity’

I'm completely impure on the question of whether you vote, I don't care if you do or don't because it doesn't matter. But I'd like for the left to stop pissing about pretending while everything burns down around us.

 

[The39thStep]

And how is that going for you? I think you misunderstand me. I'm not drafting a strategy for the future here, I'm working with what we have at the moment. Direct action can move things in the right direction (at most) or spark a discussion (at least) but the democracy we're living under is all about indirect action. You can choose to opt out but it carries the risk of giving free reign to the political right.



Well, Tories seem to be afraid of him, for one. Labour approval ratings are not bad, I hear. Last election was a massacre. I think Corbyn was unfairly treated by both the left and the right, however I can see how someone would go 'okay, we desperately need a different strategy here'.

Sorry but I haven’t seen any evidence that the Tories are afraid of him whatsoever. They might well be scared of losing the election, many of them their lucrative careers and back handers however the sinking ship of Sunsk and co have effectively self destructed .

It would have been at least honest if Starmer had said ‘ ok we need a different strategy ‘ and a take down of Corbyn and his manifesto however Starmer’s election platform was pretty much a defence of large elements of the 2019 manifesto with clips of him being at the Wapping printers dispute and supporting the miners plus some PR guff about him being forensic .

Here we are in 2023 and effectively the new ‘strategy ‘ , introduced by creeping steps, is a tepid mix of ‘we can be trusted with your money , keep your powder try , let’s not raise expectations ‘ with the party machine dominated by Blairites. None of this is of course is going to deliver any significant improvements to w/class lives .

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

As Brixton is in a relatively safe labour area I now vote green in local elections.

For a general election I'll go Labour just because I think they might be marginally better than the tories. If I thought the greens could get a decent percentage or if we had a different system I would probably no longer vote Labour.

 

[Bingoman]

I will vote Labour because my local council which is run by the Tories is deeply unpopular following changes to the town centre set up which did not need changing as it was fine as it was

Having said that the council it Tory controlled

But my local mp is the health secretary as and is a safe Tory seat unfortunately so will vote Labour at the general election to get his Majority down if possible

and I will never vote tory

 

[The39thStep]

They also build hospitals ( with shit PFI agreements) but there are new hospitals and schools) again with shit funding arrangements but there are new schools. That’s new hospitals and schools that wouldn’t exist if there had been a 3rd Major term. Yes there are massive issues but communities still have those things.

I can’t be doing with this level of ‘revolutionary purity’ saw way to much of it growing up, from people more organised, with far more resources and often more intellectual rigour than any of the current movements…

But I’ll ask you the same question as I have asked two other posters on here that I respect. What is your plan for the years 2024 to 2030?

No one has answered yet.

I have . If I didn’t make it clear I will spell it out . Back , build and consolidate working class strike action , demos , protests to create the mood and conditions for reforms and victories . Change the climate , raise expectations . We deserve better.

 

[ruffneck23]

No, not whilst Starmer is leader, fuck voting for HIS labour, will be green for me or a socialist independent

 

[A380]

I have . If I didn’t make it clear I will spell it out . Back , build and consolidate working class strike action , demos , protests to create the mood and conditions for reforms and victories . Change the climate , raise expectations . We deserve better.

Let me know how that works out for you. And how that’s different than how it worked for all the great people who have been dedicating their lives to that approach since the 1860s.

 

[kabbes]

So your alternative for the years 2024 to 2030 is?

My alternative to voting for Labour is not voting for Labour. I thought that was obvious enough

 

[The39thStep]

Let me know how that works out for you. And how that’s different than how it worked for all the great people who have been dedicating their lives to that approach since the 1860s.

Let me know how relying on voting Liberal then Labour since the 1860s without working class activity works out for you . Nearly every major reform we have had has been on the back of working class struggle , even the vote .