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Hold your nose and vote Labour?

Will you vote Labour?

  • Yes

    Votes: 70 32.1%
  • No

    Votes: 148 67.9%

  • Total voters
    218
If they can’t deal with it, why do they deserve our support? Corbyn failed and probably amplified the issue, and we’re still supposed to be supportive? Fuck all of these cunts
The evidence is that right-wing officials in the Labour Party attempted to use allegations of anti-Jewish prejudice to discredit Corbyn, whereas the Labour Party was found to have improved its procedures for dealing with this problem under Corbyn.
 
Which are? Don’t tell me that neither party has a history of institutionalised and systematic racism?
People seem to be concentrating on the ‘lesser’ at the expense of the ‘evil’
Yes, Labour has a history of institutionalised and systematic racism. But I don't think that, at least over the past twenty or thirty years or so, Jews have been a particular target of Labour racism as compared to, say, Muslims or GRT people.
 
Yes, Labour has a history of institutionalised and systematic racism. But I don't think that, at least over the past twenty or thirty years or so, Jews have been a particular target of Labour racism as compared to, say, Muslims or GRT people.
Yes I'd agree with that, too. Again, though, isn't it more accurate to say that society has a history of institutionalised and systematic racism? Is Labour any worse than the rest of society?
 
I don't want to play thread nazi... Ok, poor choice of words there. But can this not be its own thread, if it isn't already? Jeremy Corbyn has - for better or worse - nothing to do with the current Labour party or whether you'll hold your nose and vote for them anyhow.
 
I don't want to play thread nazi... Ok, poor choice of words there. But can this not be its own thread, if it isn't already? Jeremy Corbyn has - for better or worse - nothing to do with the current Labour party or whether you'll hold your nose and vote for them anyhow.
the problems still exist though
 
Yes I'd agree with that, too. Again, though, isn't it more accurate to say that society has a history of institutionalised and systematic racism? Is Labour any worse than the rest of society?
The Labour Party is responsible for legislating racist laws, for implementing and pushing racist policies, creating a racist climate from e.g. distributing racist anti-immigration mugs. It is a political group that organises for power and to use that power for the ends it supports. And like any political group must be evaluated on the basis of its actions and its politics.

ETA: To expand - the LP, like the Conservative Party, the SWP, the ACG or whatever else, is not just a group of people with shared interests, or who just happen to be thrown together. Even less is it comparable to society as a whole - a vast complex body which one does not volunteer and pay subs to join.
No doubt the Royal Society of Chemistry, the RSPCA, the National Trust, CAMRA, The Friends of Hyde Park Picture House and the West Leeds Donkey Lover and Debating Society all reflect the systemic racism that is present in society. But while no organisation can be totally apolitical, none of those organisations (even those arguing for policy in particular areas) are organising on the basis of forming a government. To put the LP in the same basket as the RSC, let alone society as a whole seems a strange thing to do.
 
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The Tories have tended to steal them off the UKIP but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Labour (even Keir "I Won't commit to anything" Starmer) and LibDem will nick a few ideas off the Greens if they believe the public want them.

Doing this already,


Cllr Dickson almost lost his seat to Greens in Lambeth. So this isn't just theory. He is one of the more intelligent Blairite Cllrs.
 
The Labour Party is responsible for legislating racist laws, for implementing and pushing racist policies, creating a racist climate from e.g. distributing racist anti-immigration mugs. It is a political group that organises for power and to use that power for the ends it supports. And like any political group must be evaluated on the basis of its actions and its politics.

ETA: To expand - the LP, like the Conservative Party, the SWP, the ACG or whatever else, is not just a group of people with shared interests, or who just happen to be thrown together. Even less is it comparable to society as a whole - a vast complex body which one does not volunteer and pay subs to join.
No doubt the Royal Society of Chemistry, the RSPCA, the National Trust, CAMRA, The Friends of Hyde Park Picture House and the West Leeds Donkey Lover and Debating Society all reflect the systemic racism that is present in society. And while no organisation can be totally apolitical, none of those organisations (even those arguing for policy in particular areas) are organising on the basis of forming a government. To put the LP in the space basket as the RSC, let alone society as a whole seems a strange thing to do.
Yes I can’t argue with any of your first paragraph, and most of the the eta part of your post is what I’m actually saying. I’m not sure what you mean by “Not put the LP in the space basket as the RSC, let alone society as a whole seems a strange thing to do.” though, I think autocorrect has struck.

If you mean that Labour has a particular responsibility because it’s a political party then I agree but then we have to compare it against the other parties. How does Labour compare to the tories, lib dems, far right and far left of the time? Is Labour particularly bad and is there something about the Labour party that attracts racists? I wouldn’t have thought they particularly stand out.

In which case it’s not really accurate just to say that the Labour party is racist – it needs to be phrased that society is racist and Labour, like the other parties, have been tainted by that – otherwise I think we’re playing into the hands of the tories and particularly the far right ("yes well everyone's racist we're no worse than anyone else"). Unions have enacted racist policies, too. That needs to be changed, but it wouldn’t be right to concentrate purely on unions rather than the society their members come from.

The discussion came from the statement that Corbyn is an antisemite. I think it was shameful that Corbyn was latched upon and labelled as antisemite when he’s actually been a committed anti-racist all his life. The list I gave above gave just those things he’s pushed for to counter antisemitism – the list of anti-racist actions would be much, much longer (starting of course with South Africa at the time). So he was likely to make a real change in policies to reduce discrimination against minorities. And how come with such a thorough grounding in anti-racism would he be racist against Jews? It’s certainly possible but it seems to me that his stance against Israeli oppression of the Palestinians is the main reason it’s been jumped on. He's certainly made mistakes but if him not bowing deeply enough at a service becomes front page news then he’s going to be fucked whatever he does.

I’m not a huge supporter of the Labour party before (or after :) ) Corbyn – it was his policies aiming to bring back the successful policies of the PWSC that made me support him (whether he’d have succeeded is a different matter of course). If he’d been elected I think he would have done his best to enact policies across the board that were anti-racist, which again is why I think it’s wrong to single him out as being an antisemite. It’s an incredibly damaging thing to say about someone without being able to back it up properly.
 
Doing this already,


Cllr Dickson almost lost his seat to Greens in Lambeth. So this isn't just theory. He is one of the more intelligent Blairite Cllrs.
The problem here is what the Greens and Labour aren't saying. I've been living on a largely black council estate for the last 15 years. It is in what we keep being told is the Green Party's number one target ward in Lambeth. In that decade and a half I have NEVER seen anyone from the Green Party come on to the estate, and have never even had a leaflet from them through the door. They are very busy in the largely white middle class streets around us but they just don't come here. The Labour Party do, but what they do is say nice things and then go away and the council keeps trying to screw us over. There is currently no political party operating seriously in the borough of Lambeth that isn't primarily chasing white middle class votes. As far as they are all concerned the rest of us can go to hell, the agenda is gentrification and getting power. Jim and Claire aren't entirely dumb, but they are both lot down the rabbit hole of all politics being about national Parliamentary elections chasing white middle class floating voters in marginal seats in middle England, and thus the needs of a majority of people in Lambeth are entirely unimportant. Stuff them ALL. We need something locally based and focused, taking council seats from all of them.
 
The problem here is what the Greens and Labour aren't saying. I've been living on a largely black council estate for the last 15 years. It is in what we keep being told is the Green Party's number one target ward in Lambeth. In that decade and a half I have NEVER seen anyone from the Green Party come on to the estate, and have never even had a leaflet from them through the door. They are very busy in the largely white middle class streets around us but they just don't come here. The Labour Party do, but what they do is say nice things and then go away and the council keeps trying to screw us over. There is currently no political party operating seriously in the borough of Lambeth that isn't primarily chasing white middle class votes. As far as they are all concerned the rest of us can go to hell, the agenda is gentrification and getting power. Jim and Claire aren't entirely dumb, but they are both lot down the rabbit hole of all politics being about national Parliamentary elections chasing white middle class floating voters in marginal seats in middle England, and thus the needs of a majority of people in Lambeth are entirely unimportant. Stuff them ALL. We need something locally based and focused, taking council seats from all of them.

To be fair to the Greens in Lambeth they were ( they lost seats at last election) helpful to the people on estates that the Labour Council was trying to "regenerate". Pre Kerslake report.

Rashid stood as Green Cllr in my Coldharbour ward several times. And I would see him out and about canvassing.
 
The problem here is what the Greens and Labour aren't saying. I've been living on a largely black council estate for the last 15 years. It is in what we keep being told is the Green Party's number one target ward in Lambeth. In that decade and a half I have NEVER seen anyone from the Green Party come on to the estate, and have never even had a leaflet from them through the door. They are very busy in the largely white middle class streets around us but they just don't come here. The Labour Party do, but what they do is say nice things and then go away and the council keeps trying to screw us over. There is currently no political party operating seriously in the borough of Lambeth that isn't primarily chasing white middle class votes. As far as they are all concerned the rest of us can go to hell, the agenda is gentrification and getting power. Jim and Claire aren't entirely dumb, but they are both lot down the rabbit hole of all politics being about national Parliamentary elections chasing white middle class floating voters in marginal seats in middle England, and thus the needs of a majority of people in Lambeth are entirely unimportant. Stuff them ALL. We need something locally based and focused, taking council seats from all of them.


So what are you calling this party you are helping set up?
 
To be fair to the Greens in Lambeth they were ( they lost seats at last election) helpful to the people on estates that the Labour Council was trying to "regenerate". Pre Kerslake report.

Rashid stood as Green Cllr in my Coldharbour ward several times. And I would see him out and about canvassing.

There you go, spoiling the perfectly good polemics on this thread with your personal experience of observed behaviour, again.
 
This is an interesting report on the views of working class voters who are "deserting Rishi Sunak's Tories in droves".

tl; dr- Interestingly the drift to Labour of disillusioned 2019 voters is weak and Starmer might actually have to have an opinion slightly different to mainstream Toryism to shore up that base. Notewrothy that 12% of the sample group are signed up to back Richard Tice- the former Brexit hardliners, I guess. 21% still "don't knows".
Ironically this article was next to the article you posted on the website this morning

 
If you mean that Labour has a particular responsibility because it’s a political party then I agree but then we have to compare it against the other parties. How does Labour compare to the tories, lib dems, far right and far left of the time? Is Labour particularly bad and is there something about the Labour party that attracts racists? I wouldn’t have thought they particularly stand out.
Why? Why do we have to compare it against other parties? If the reply one gives to the statement "look at this racist action the the Labour Party has done", is "but the Tories are worse" then that is pretty much a clear example of whataboutery.
In which case it’s not really accurate just to say that the Labour party is racist – it needs to be phrased that society is racist and Labour, like the other parties, have been tainted by that – otherwise I think we’re playing into the hands of the tories and particularly the far right ("yes well everyone's racist we're no worse than anyone else"). Unions have enacted racist policies, too. That needs to be changed, but it wouldn’t be right to concentrate purely on unions rather than the society their members come from.
The Labour has been in government or the official opposition for 100 years now. It is not just been "tainted" by society's racism, it has played a key role in forming the racist policies and actions of the state over that time.
To dismiss, or downplay, the racism of the Labour Party (and Liberal Democrats, SNP, etc) is what allows the far-right to grow. The anti-immigrant policies of New Labour assisted the BNP, Macron's bashing of Islam played right into the hands of the RN.
 
The Labour has been in government or the official opposition for 100 years now. It is not just been "tainted" by society's racism, it has played a key role in forming the racist policies and actions of the state over that time.
To dismiss, or downplay, the racism of the Labour Party (and Liberal Democrats, SNP, etc) is what allows the far-right to grow. The anti-immigrant policies of New Labour assisted the BNP, Macron's bashing of Islam played right into the hands of the RN.
This goes back to the end of the 1980s and the blame lies squarely with Peter Mandelson and Philip Gould. In a context in which much of the Labour Party had been actively fighting bigotry and prejudice they introduced the idea of a static Overton Window and the idea that opposing bigotry was a bad thing as it upset bigots and drew flak from the gutter press. Completely misunderstanding what the Overton Window was. Joe Overton was a right wing extremist libertarian who invented a tool designed to work out what policy areas the extreme right should push at to gain political traction. The damn thing was invented to be moved. Trying to treat it as immutable was basically surrendering to neofascism. Kinnock, Blair and the others who bought into that delusions share some of the blame, but the driving forces were Mandelson and Gould. Until they started pushing that line it was accepted across the board that fighting bigotry and prejudice was a good thing that wasn't always popular. Their most enthusiastic acolytes now OWN the Labour Party.
 
So what are you calling this party you are helping set up?
I'm not. At the moment I am just trying to organise to stand a candidate in Streatham and North Croydon using the Transform Lambeth network to find funding and campaigners. At the moment the plan is that whatever happens in terms of Tramsform attempting to form a new national party, candidates at this general election can stand independently of it and still get backing. If they manage to form a national party then the membership apparently gets to choose the party's name (I think to some extent because it is understood that Transform is not a good name for a political party but nobody actually has a better idea yet). My guess is that it will end up being an independent candidate standing very much as a local individual on a personal platform labelled on ballot papers as something like "independent <something implying democratic and left of centre>. Aside from sending in some amendments to the draft constitution I'm not really getting involved in the efforts to create a new national left party simply because I can't be bothered with all the inevitable aggro when there's only a matter of months in which to get candidates set up, funds raised and campaigns planned before the general election. I'm just setting out to get some of the worst crooks out of Parliament and replaced by some functioning adult human beings.
 
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