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Hold your nose and vote Labour?

Will you vote Labour?

  • Yes

    Votes: 70 32.1%

  • No

    Votes: 148 67.9%
  • Total voters
    218
Difficult to handle, though. He was accused of antisemitism for not expediting the process of expelling people while the right wing investigating team were telling him there was no problem, weren't they? Then he appointed someone effective to be in charge of the process. The twice (?) that Corbyn intervened to speed up the process (with Livingstone and one other?) he was accused of interfering with the process, making him out to be even more of an anti-semite.
 
two sheds said:
Difficult to handle, though. He was accused of antisemitism for not expediting the process of expelling people while the right wing investigating team were telling him there was no problem, weren't they? Then he appointed someone effective to be in charge of the process. The twice (?) that Corbyn intervened to speed up the process (with Livingstone and one other?) he was accused of interfering with the process, making him out to be even more of an anti-semite.
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Not sure tbh, which is probably the case for a lot of people, public perception was mainly he was anti EU historically then failed to take a side when in opposition to a pro EU Tory PM forcing a hard brexit, then failed to deal with antisemites in the party. Thats about as much detail as most people I knew had at best, those that even had the vaguest idea of politics, so the pro EU lot didn't like him and the ones that were not a fan of antisemitism didn't like him for that. The details often don't matter as much as the perception of the details, why the Murdoch papers are such an issue and now facebook etc. Especially when it comes to the public, I always site Cornwall voting for brexit in this way, no one knew what the huge benefits were we got. I worked with spending the money so did. Ask any random person and it was either red top stuff, I have no idea/similar or some complaints about bins and roads, which were not a target of the funding anyway. Ship builder down the road got a bunch of money, people in the same village barely know the company even exists, let alone what funding they received.
 
redsquirrel said:
Where are these people?
I can think of only one single U75 poster that had this position since Covid - and they are now banned.
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well it was in response to:

Are any of the bend over and vote Labour at all costs brigade on here actually members of the Labour Party ?
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Haven't we been having this discussion on the thread? Some people have been arguing to hold your nose and vote Labour and quite a few have been arguing that they can't bring themselves to do that. Which I quite understand, but I feel that holding the nose and voting against the tories is a quite acceptable position, too.
 
two sheds said:
well it was in response to:



Haven't we been having this discussion on the thread? Some people have been arguing to hold your nose and vote Labour and quite a few have been arguing that they can't bring themselves to do that. Which I quite understand, but I feel that holding the nose and voting against the tories is a quite acceptable position, too.
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It's not been as evenly balanced as that though has it. The 'if you don't vote Labour you're effectively voting Tory' argument is pretty explicitly trying to tell others what they should do. I haven't really seen anyone telling Labour voters that they shouldn't do whatever they want.
 
If Rutherglen is anything to go by - and lots of people are saying it is - Labour are pretty much in the shit. They got fewer votes than last time and the time before that. Doesn't look like a ringing endorsement to me.
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
It's not been as evenly balanced as that though has it. The 'if you don't vote Labour you're effectively voting Tory' argument is pretty explicitly trying to tell others what they should do. I haven't really seen anyone telling Labour voters that they shouldn't do whatever they want.
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Not my intention for one - I'm saying that I might hold my nose and vote against the tories. Other people are saying they might not hold their nose and vote labour.

There's been a few insults thrown on both sides I don't see it as one-sided at all: "Are any of the bend over and vote Labour at all costs brigade" which I was responding to for example.
 
two sheds said:
well it was in response to:



Haven't we been having this discussion on the thread? Some people have been arguing to hold your nose and vote Labour and quite a few have been arguing that they can't bring themselves to do that. Which I quite understand, but I feel that holding the nose and voting against the tories is a quite acceptable position, too.
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But the two are not comparable are they.
No one on this thread has proposed that people should never vote, and that this amounts to a genuine political strategy.
On the other hand the position that people must vote for Labour, and even that doing anything else amounts to supporting the Tories, has been advocated.
 
We're not talking about never voting on the thread are we? I was assuming that we're discussing the upcoming election. I've remarked up thread that peoples' decision is going to be different if the alternative party is out-and-out fascist. I'm certainly not saying that people must vote for Labour - they must do what they feel comfortable with.
 
I'm rapidly coming to the position that was prevalent when i was young - that your vote is between you and the ballot box. I have lied in the past about how I've voted (I voted Labour in 1992 after campaigning as a member of the Green Party). Other than that I've always been very open about who I vote for, but I still haven't said how I voted at the last local elections, and more than likely I'll keep it myself how I vote in the next general election as everyone seems to be a complete cunt about it all these days. But rest assured I'll die as someone who never voted Tory (or ever again for a centrist Labour Party) (or for the Tory enabling Lib Dems) and right now the Greens can fuck off too. doesn't leave me a lot options I know.
 
two sheds said:
We're not talking about never voting on the thread are we? I was assuming that we're discussing the upcoming election. I've remarked up thread that peoples' decision is going to be different if the alternative party is out-and-out fascist. I'm certainly not saying that people must vote for Labour - they must do what they feel comfortable with.
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I guess its more will you vote labour if they have the best chance of winning your area, versus voting for who if any party represents your actual views but has much smaller support base. I saw it very much as anti tory, labour appear to be second, even if you don't like them will you vote for them just to get the Tories out even if you disagree with Labour.
 
One thing - if labour do get in there surely must be at least some MPs who have been disturbed by Starmer's lying about all he believed in and the reversal of all the vaguely left wing policies.

There's more chance of affecting individual labour MPs than there is tory MPs if they get in. If there are enough to counter Labour's majority then Starmer loves power above all things and they might have some bargaining power?
 
two sheds said:
One thing - if labour do get in there surely must be at least some MPs who have been disturbed by Starmer's lying about all he believed in and the reversal of all the vaguely left wing policies.

There's more chance of affecting individual labour MPs than there is tory MPs if they get in. If there are enough to counter Labour's majority then Starmer loves power above all things and they might have some bargaining power?
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The history of Labour left MPs when push comes to shove doesn’t fill me with any confidence tbh
 
Are there any Labour MPs who vaguely supported Corbyn that haven't been purged? I thought mine was (Truro and Falmouth) but I'm now not so sure :(
 
The39thStep said:
Campaign group?
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34 of them. There'll presumably be some fewer come the election. Can we dare hope for a thriving underground movement of Democratic Socialist MPs who can't come out because they'd be expelled but are coiled ready to pounce? :hmm:
 
two sheds said:
34 of them. There'll presumably be some fewer come the election. Can we dare hope for a thriving underground movement of Democratic Socialist MPs who can't come out because they'd be expelled but are coiled ready to pounce? :hmm:
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One of the problem with that grouping is it’s political incoherency imo.It seem to be a very loose collection that doesn’t operate as a faction should . It also doesn’t seem have any organised link with trade unions or organisations out side of Parliament .The final nail in the coffin is that it’s led by Richard Burgon .
 
two sheds said:
….I feel that holding the nose and voting against the tories is a quite acceptable position, too.
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Which Tories are we voting against though? The political direction of travel carries on no matter the colour of the winning rosette.

The longer we keep upholding the charade the longer we lend it legitimacy. I was a long term believer in this sort of democracy until relatively recently.

No longer- the system is broken beyond repair. If we start by acknowledging that then we have the chance to fix it
 
Yes fair points all.

I'm voting against what I'm concerned about being the next generation of tory MPs. Trump gets in the US (or not) and there's going to be loads of funding for extreme right-wing groups in education, justice, medicine, social provision ... Enough Tory MPs can pass properly abusive laws to encourage them. That's going to make a lot of minorities' lives miserable.

Yes in one way it's a charade. In another though it's the body that passes laws that fundamentally affect peoples' lives.

If we abandon it we're abandoning it to the far right, surely.
 
two sheds said:
Difficult to handle, though. He was accused of antisemitism for not expediting the process of expelling people while the right wing investigating team were telling him there was no problem, weren't they? Then he appointed someone effective to be in charge of the process. The twice (?) that Corbyn intervened to speed up the process (with Livingstone and one other?) he was accused of interfering with the process, making him out to be even more of an anti-semite.
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I think he is an antisemite, mind
 
Orang Utan said:
I think he is an antisemite, mind
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Despite his long history of standing up for Jewish people?
  • Corbyn organised the Apr. 1977 defence of Jewish populated Wood Green from a Neo-Nazi march
  • EDM3933 7 Nov. 1990: Corbyn signs motion condemning the rise of antisemitism
  • EDM634, 11 Apr. 2000: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion condemning David Irving for being a Holocaust Denier
  • EDM1124, 6 Nov. 2000: Jeremy Corbyn praised the ‘British Schindler’, Bill Barazetti, for his WW2 kindertransport
  • EDM742, 28 Jan. 2002: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion praising football clubs for commemorating Holocaust Day
  • EDM1233 30 Apr. 2002: Corbyn was a primary sponsor on a motion condemning antisemitism
  • 11 May 2002: Jeremy led a clean up of Finsbury Park Synagogue after an anti-Semitic attack
  • EDM1691, 23 July 2002: Corbyn condemned attacks on a synagogue in Swansea
  • EDM123 26 Nov. 2003: Corbyn officially condemns attacks on 2 Istanbul synagogues
  • EDM298, 16 Dec. 2003: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
  • 2004: Jeremy condemned news that anti-Semitic hate crimes had risen for yet another year
  • EDM461, 21 Jan. 2004: Jeremy Corbyn condemned the French government’s moves to ban the Jewish Kippa in French Schools
  • EDM717, 26 Feb. 2004: Jeremy signed a motion praising Simon Wiesenthal for bringing Nazi perpetrators of the Holocaust to justice
  • EDM1613, 8 Sept. 2004: Corbyn co-sponsored a bill expressing fears for the future of the United Synagogue Pension Scheme
  • EDM1699, 11 Oct. 2004: Jeremy Corbyn condemned arbitrary attacks on civilians in Israel and Palestine
  • EDM482, 12 Jan. 2005: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
  • EDM343, 16 June 2005: Jeremy condemned the desecration of a Jewish cemetery in east London
  • EDM1343, 11 Jan. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
  • EDM1774, 8 Mar. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn led condemnations of an Iranian Magazine soliciting cartoons about the Holocaust
  • EDM1267, 16 Apr. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn condemned Bryan Ferry for anti-Semitic remarks
  • EDM2414, 26 June 2006: Jeremy Corbyn praised British war veterans for their efforts to combat the Holocaust
  • EDM2705, 10 Oct. 2006: Jeremy signed a motion marking the 70th anniversary of Cable Street
  • EDM271, 14 Nov. 2007: Jeremy co-sponsored a motion lamenting the poverty and social exclusion East London Jews suffered
  • EDM153, 12 May 2008: Corbyn praised the efforts of the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto during the uprising of 1944
  • EDM2350, 27 Oct 2008: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion marking the 70th anniversary of the horrors of the holocaust
  • EDM173, 8 Dec. 2008: Jeremy condemned the Press Complaints Commission for refusing to sanction The Times for antisemitism
  • EDM461, 14 Jan. 2009: Jeremy Corbyn condemned a wave of recent anti-Semitic incidents targeted
  • EDM605, 27 Jan. 2009: Corbyn signed John Mann’s motion condemning antisemitism on university campuses
  • EDM917 26 Feb. 2009: Jeremy signs a motion condemning antisemitism on the internet
  • EDM1175 24 Mar. 2009: Corbyn signs a motion praising the heroism of British Jews during Holocaust
  • EDM337, 2 Dec. 2009: Jeremy Condemned Iran’s treatment of Jewish minorities in Iran
  • EDM850 9 Feb. 2010: Jeremy joins in calls for Facebook to do more to fight antisemitism
  • EDM891: 22 Feb 2010: Corbyn co-sponsors a motion calling for Yemen’s Jews to be given refugee status to the UK
  • EDM908 27 Oct. 2010: Corbyn praises work of late Israeli PM in his pursuit of a 2 state solution
  • EDM1360, 27 Jan. 2011: Corbyn co-sponsored a motion praising the ‘never again for anyone initiative’
  • EDM1527, 3 Mar. 2011: Corbyn backed Ian Paisley’s motion condemning the anti-Semitic remarks of Dior’s lead fashion designer
  • EDM2870, 14 Mar. 2012: Jeremy Corbyn condemned the sale of Nazi memorabilia at an auction in Bristol
  • EDM2866, 14 Mar 2012: Jeremy Corbyn co-sponsored a bill condemning the rise of antisemitism in Lithuania
  • EDM2899, 20 Mar. 2012, Jeremy Corbyn condemned a terrorist attack on a Jewish school in Toulouse
  • EDM168, 12 June 2012, Jeremy co-sponsored a motion condemning anti-Semitic attacks during EURO 2012 in Poland
  • EDM 195 13 June 2012: Jeremy attacks BBC for cutting Jewish programmes from Its schedule
  • EDM 1133 1 Mar 2013: Corbyn joins a chorus of calls condemning antisemitism In sport
  • 1 Oct. 2013: Corbyn was one of the few MPs who defended Ralph Miliband from Daily Mail antisemitism
  • EDM 932 9 Jan 2014: Jeremy praises Holocaust Memorial’s work on antisemitism education
  • EDM 165 22 June 2015: Jeremy condemns a Neo-Nazi rally planned for a Jewish area of London
  • Sat 4 July 2015: Jeremy co-planned a counter-fascist demo in defence of Jewish residents at Golders Green. The march was re-routed
  • 18 Nov. 2015, Corbyn used one of his first PMQs to challenge Cameron to do more on antisemiUsm
  • 9 Oct 2016: Corbyn, close to tears, leads commemoration of the Battle of Cable Street
  • 3 Dec. 2016: Corbyn visits Terezin Concentration Camp to commemorate Holocaust victims
  • In 2017-19 Jeremy introduced 20 new measures to combat antisemitism in the Labour Party
 
PTK said:
Like what?
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As a leader, not doing enough to combat anti-semitism amongst some of Labour’s members. Fuck all this excusing of reprehensible attitudes cos the rest of their politics are acceptable. Get rid.
 
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