Hold your nose and vote Labour?

[Orang Utan]

Can you quote anything that Jeremy Corbyn said that was anti-Jewish?

Why should I? It’s all there for you to make your own mind up. I have no interest in changing your mind

 

[Chz]

Edit: I completely fucking lost my mind for a minute and wanted to discuss JC and anti-semitism. This was quite clearly an error on my part due to insufficient coffee.

 

[Rob Ray]

better people than me have died for the right to cast a vote

They died to try and bring about equality for variously their gender and their class. The X alone was never the point.

 

[Chz]

They died to try and bring about equality for variously their gender and their class. The X alone was never the point.

Some of them did, some of them didn't. Are you Speaker for the Dead? Seems a very UK-centric view.

 

[The39thStep]

Not quite sure that physical force Chartists would be out on the streets demanding a vote for Starmer tbh

 

[Rob Ray]

Some of them did, some of them didn't. Are you Speaker for the Dead? Seems a very UK-centric view.

I mean I suppose some people just really like writing X in a box, like some people enjoy collecting coins rather than spending them. I wouldn't see coin collecting as being the reason people get jobs though.

There's really no more grandiloquent speaking for the dead in the first place than to say "they died for the vote", btw.

 

[platinumsage]

People have died for all sorts of things, if living people based all their decisions on death tallies they‘d never get anywhere.

 

[hitmouse]

Why should I? It’s all there for you to make your own mind up. I have no interest in changing your mind

Fantastic argument there. I think he's an antisemite because of the things he says. What things? Oh, you know, things, I'm not going to tell you about them. Just things.

 

[Rob Ray]

Cue discussion on whether that funeral he went to is evidence of him doing an anti semitism or of doing a peacenik.

 

[hitmouse]

I mean, I'm totally open to discussion of whether things he actually did or said are racist or not, and of whether it's even helpful to approach things in that kind of binary way. I just think that people making claims like that should be prepared to back them up if they think the subject matter is actually serious.

 

[Rob Ray]

Oh that wasn't a dig at you, it was a dig at the "I read this thing in the tabloids once" level of most analysis about it, which seems to be where Orangutan's at.

Fwiw I think Corbyn 's long personal history speaks for itself on his personal beliefs, but he's also always been prone to overlooking some of his friends' and followers' bullshit.

 

[danny la rouge]

Edit: I completely fucking lost my mind for a minute and wanted to discuss JC and anti-semitism. This was quite clearly an error on my part due to insufficient coffee.

I’m quoting this as a reminder to myself to keep it brief.

hitmouse makes a good point about non-binary and Rob Ray makes a good point about blind spots.

What I wanted to say is that I’d like society as a whole to move away from the Bad Person or Good Person polarity. It’s quite possible to do a whole bunch of stuff on the positive ledger and still fuck up a couple of times on the negative ledger.

More than possible, I suggest it’s actually what most of us do.

 

[Orang Utan]

Fantastic argument there. I think he's an antisemite because of the things he says. What things? Oh, you know, things, I'm not going to tell you about them. Just things.

No, it’s just been gone over and over again and I’m not interested in having it

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

As a leader, not doing enough to combat anti-semitism amongst some of Labour’s members.

You realise that this will apply to all of Corbyn's most immediate predecessors too. If there was an antisemitism (a Jewish member of Labour once claimed that writing it as "anti-Semitism" was antisemitic, but only if you're a Corbyn supporter I guess) problem then it didn't just magic into existence when Corbyn became leader.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

No, it’s just been gone over and over again and I’m not interested in having it

The usual close minded approach i expect from people who make your sort of claims.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Can you quote anything that Jeremy Corbyn said that was anti-Jewish?

He can't. nobody can.

 

[PTK]

He can't. nobody can.

Perhaps the person who cannot be bothered to furnish evidence for his serious allegations mourns the good ol' days of trial by ordeal, when Jeremy Corbyn could have been thrown in to a lake, and if he floated, he would be judged guilty, and if he drowned, he would be judged innocent.

 

[two sheds]

.

 

[newme]

Perhaps the person who cannot be bothered to furnish evidence for his serious allegations mourns the good ol' days of trial by ordeal, when Jeremy Corbyn could have been thrown in to a lake, and if he floated, he would be judged guilty, and if he drowned, he would be judged innocent.

Or a duck

 

[two sheds]

Actually I withdraw the questions Orang Utan they're not really fair.

My question as to whether you'd say Starmer is antisemitic comes from this. Must admit that I'm not sure how accurate this is but:

UK Labour Party accused of discrimination over expulsion of Jewish members

Jewish members of the Labour Party are almost 13 times more likely to be expelled for supporting proscribed left-wing organisations than non-Jewish members, JVL claims

www.middleeasteye.net

I wonder what would be the effect of a news story accusing Starmer of antisemitism every time a Jewish labour member was expelled. He'd pretty soon get a reputation

Eta I think you were wrong when you said above "Hmm, apart from the fact that there has been a lot of antisemitism in the Labour Party," I thought there had been studies showing that there was less antisemitism in Labour than certainly in the tory party.

 

[two sheds]

Or a duck

Very small rocks

 

[newme]

Very small rocks

Coconut shell

 

[Orang Utan]

Actually I withdraw the questions Orang Utan they're not really fair.

My question as to whether you'd say Starmer is antisemitic comes from this. Must admit that I'm not sure how accurate this is but:

UK Labour Party accused of discrimination over expulsion of Jewish members

Jewish members of the Labour Party are almost 13 times more likely to be expelled for supporting proscribed left-wing organisations than non-Jewish members, JVL claims

www.middleeasteye.net

I wonder what would be the effect of a news story accusing Starmer of antisemitism every time a Jewish labour member was expelled. He'd pretty soon get a reputation

Eta I think you were wrong when you said above "Hmm, apart from the fact that there has been a lot of antisemitism in the Labour Party," I thought there had been studies showing that there was less antisemitism in Labour than certainly in the tory party.

I think the entire Labour Party has a problem with antisemitism, and the fact that the Tories are also horrifically racist just shows what a shitshow everything is

 

[two sheds]

You need to show that there's more antisemitism in the Labour party than in the country as a whole though, otherwise you're just being selective when picking on Labour.

 

[Orang Utan]

You need to show that there's more antisemitism in the Labour party than in the country as a whole though, otherwise you're just being selective when picking on Labour.

I don’t need to do anything. Why is it ‘picking on Labour’? They’re the closest parliamentary party to my own beliefs, yet they’re a profoundly undemocratic institution sheltering a whole host of bigots. Dunno why folk on here are so tied to that problematic institution.

 

[hitmouse]

I don’t need to do anything. Why is it ‘picking on Labour’? They’re the closest parliamentary party to my own beliefs, yet they’re a profoundly undemocratic institution sheltering a whole host of bigots. Dunno why folk on here are so tied to that problematic institution.

I don't have any particular time or sympathy for Labour, but I think it's important to distinguish between well-founded criticisms and ones that are a bit shaky.

 

[two sheds]

There is indeed antisemitism in the Labour party. But if you're going to single out the Labour party without knowing how much compared to the rest of society, and then use that to label Corbyn as antisemitic, that's distortion.

 

[Orang Utan]

I don't have any particular time or sympathy for Labour, but I think it's important to distinguish between well-founded criticisms and ones that are a bit shaky.

Which are? Don’t tell me that neither party has a history of institutionalised and systematic racism?
People seem to be concentrating on the ‘lesser’ at the expense of the ‘evil’

 

[Orang Utan]

There is indeed antisemitism in the Labour party. But if you're going to single out the Labour party without knowing how much compared to the rest of society, and then use that to label Corbyn as antisemitic, that's distortion.

If they can’t deal with it, why do they deserve our support? Corbyn failed and probably amplified the issue, and we’re still supposed to be supportive? Fuck all of these cunts

 

[two sheds]

So it's ok for me to claim that there's a problem of antisemitism in the revolutionary left and anarchists? The real problem and a proper danger is with the far right, and singling out Labour masks that.