Hold your nose and vote Labour?

[krtek a houby]

Seriously doubt it but either way I never voted for them anyway.

So why vote for them now?

 

[newme]

So why vote for them now?

I'm not voting for the tories? What are you on about.

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm not voting for the tories? What are you on about.

What are you on about?

Am talking about Labour. By not voting for them it might send a message that they have got it wrong.

Currently, whoever "win" are going to be Tory (ie the Conservatives or Labour who are sharing traits with the Cons)

 

[newme]

What are you on about?

Am talking about Labour. By not voting for them it might send a message that they have got it wrong.

Currently, whoever "win" are going to be Tory (ie the Conservatives or Labour who are sharing traits with the Cons)

So just don't bother? Voting numbers are so bad that if people actually did all vote just about any party could get in. I didn't vote Labour last time, tories got in. As they have here for ages. Thought maybe less tories was a good idea.

 

[hash tag]

Am talking about Labour. By not voting for them it might send a message that they have got it wrong.

I'm not convinced they will hear you.

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm not convinced they will hear you.

Not from where am living these days, that's for sure.

Still interested in what happens, though.

 

[newme]

Not from where am living these days, that's for sure.

Still interested in what happens, though.

Where did you go? Figured you were in a celtic region and likely cornwall based on the username and my dreadful cornish lol.

Either way people not being involved in a process are ignored. No political party has gone well we were going very right wing but since someone didn't vote at all let's rethink this

 

[danny la rouge]

Please explain.

Vote or don't vote. I'm not telling people what to do or not do at the ballot box.

What I'm saying is that it is my opinion that what takes place at the ballot box in a so-called representative democracy is not an exercise of yours or your community's power. It is an act of relinquishing power. It's a charade in which we pretend that power changes hands, but in which it does not. The same interests will be served.

If you want a say in which flavour of neoliberal runs government in the interests of the capitalist class, great. Vote, watch Question Time, deliver leaflets for Starmer.

Will there be policy differences? Sure. You'll find them. But if Labour wins the next election, I know I'll be doing the same that I did during Labour's last run in office: opposing the government of the day.

Only organising along class lines in our workplaces and communities will bring self respect and solidarity. Fighting measure by measure, issue by issue, battle by battle.

The truth is that the working class is atomised. There is no organisation, not even an appetite for organisation.

But what is the alternative? Hope that by voting for Starmer he'll grow the political will to do sufficient on the pressing issues of the day? On climate change? He won't. The only chance we have to affect change is through extra parliamentary action. Not feeling optimistic? No, me neither, but expecting change by voting is not realistic.

I'm not saying don't vote. Vote if you want to, but don't mistake it for politics.

 

[newme]

Vote or don't vote. I'm not telling people what to do or not do at the ballot box.

What I'm saying is that it is my opinion that what takes place at the ballot box in a so-called representative democracy is not an exercise of yours or your community's power. It is an act of relinquishing power. It's a charade in which we pretend that power changes hands, but in which it does not. The same interests will be served.

If you want a say in which flavour of neoliberal runs government in the interests of the capitalist class, great. Vote, watch Question Time, deliver leaflets for Starmer.

Will there be policy differences? Sure. You'll find them. But if Labour wins the next election, I know I'll be doing the same that I did during Labour's last run in office: opposing the government of the day.

Only organising along class lines in our workplaces and communities will bring self respect and solidarity. Fighting measure by measure, issue by issue, battle by battle.

The truth is that the working class is atomised. There is no organisation, not even an appetite for organisation.

But what is the alternative? Hope that by voting for Starmer he'll grow the political will to do sufficient on the pressing issues of the day? On climate change? He won't. The only chance we have to affect change is through extra parliamentary action. Not feeling optimistic? No, me neither, but expecting change by voting is not realistic.

I'm not saying don't vote. Vote if you want to, but don't mistake it for politics.

I agree with you on absolutely everything here. I just thought maybe after over a decade of tories fucking everything up and having an unelected leader for a lot of it that maybe absolutely anyone else may do a less worse job.

I think they are all shit, so it's don't bother at all. Vote for someone with no chance of winning. Or vote for someone possibly a bit less shit. I don't care what it's called, who is in charge or whatever if things are getting better. Apparently suggesting that voting against the ones who seem the worst at the moment is somehow bad.

I can see why so many don't bother. I was against every single government I was ever aware of which does reach back to protesting blairs illegal war. I know a lot about what's bad but where the good option people are supposed to pick.

 

[krtek a houby]

Where did you go? Figured you were in a celtic region and likely cornwall based on the username and my dreadful cornish lol.

Either way people not being involved in a process are ignored. No political party has gone well we were going very right wing but since someone didn't vote at all let's rethink this

When living in your country, was privileged to be able to vote despite the lack of choice. Labour for a wee while but dropped them (because of Blair etc) and felt hopes raised by Corbyn.

Nowadays it's looking grim and concerned for family and friends over there.

(Am Irish, krtek is a Czech cartoon character and am living in Japan. Unable to vote)

 

[xenon]

When living in your country, was privileged to be able to vote despite the lack of choice. Labour for a wee while but dropped them (because of Blair etc) and felt hopes raised by Corbyn.

Nowadays it's looking grim and concerned for family and friends over there.

(Am Irish, krtek is a Czech cartoon character and am living in Japan. Unable to vote)

I have always wondered what your username meant but never got round to asking.

 

[xenon]

there is no utility in not voting. I mean vote or don’t. But they don’t give a shit about turnout. No one is wondering how to capture those potential votes. It’s all just fighting over those who do. And then it only really counts in a few marginals. I agree though, with those saying that voting should not encompass the entirety of your political engagement.

 

[teqniq]

Abysmal when you're getting endorsements from the likes of this guy:

 

[danny la rouge]

“Very Reaganesque”. Where’s that ballot box?!

 

[two sheds]

Then don’t vote for them either

I’m not sure I buy this idea that not voting frees you from responsibility for whoever gets voted in: a fascist party as an extreme example.

What’s a likely result of Starmer's Labour getting in? Clampdown on drugs, protests and “anti-social” behaviour, further clampdown on “illegal” immigrants, expanded private provision of NHS services, likely watering down of environmental protections for transport and house building pushes, government posts being given to right wing labour MPs who want to demonstrate how business friendly they are, …

And the likely result of Conservatives getting in? Clampdown on drugs, protests and “anti-social” behaviour, further clampdown on “illegal” immigrants, strong move towards US form of insurance based NHS with huge bills for ill people, wholesale watering down of environmental protections for transport and house building pushes, more war on woke and scaling back minority protections, coming out of ECHR, government posts being given to right wing absolute nutter tory MPs including the far right, ...

Key for me with those are the dangers of insurance based NHS, scaling back minority protections, and nutter far-right tory MPs in government posts and a slide to out and out fascism funded/encouraged by US funded groups.

 

[newme]

I’m not sure I buy this idea that not voting frees you from responsibility for whoever gets voted in: a fascist party as an extreme example.

Yeh it's the they are both the same argument again. Except while they do align on a lot of bullshit one is actually far worse and keeps proving it.

Status quo is bad enough that a change is required. I don't care if its labour or the SNP. Yes labour aren't left but tories are way further right and where is the left option anyway. If you don't vote, you can't do anything, if you do then sometimes you can. Democrats swung red states, admittedly by being less shut than labour and with tories not being as shite as the Republicans but one thing at a time. There's no magic bullet. Starmer is not the answer but neither was Biden, people spent happy with him but choosing v trump was easy. Who thinks rishi is the one to lead? Not even the tories.

Continuing the same course of action despite negative results is ridiculous

 

[Rob Ray]

Continuing the same course of action despite negative results is ridiculous

Yes. We've been voting for the least worst option for quite some time now.

 

[newme]

Yes. We've been voting for the least worst option for quite some time now.

The majority have not been.

 

[Rob Ray]

The majority have not been.

Why do you think that is? Clearly it's not because anarchists don't participate.

 

[hash tag]

there is no utility in not voting. I mean vote or don’t. But they don’t give a shit about turnout. No one is wondering how to capture those potential votes. It’s all just fighting over those who do. And then it only really counts in a few marginals. I agree though, with those saying that voting should not encompass the entirety of your political engagement.

A good campaign, lots of big issues should get the voters out?

 

[two sheds]

Why do you think that is? Clearly it's not because anarchists don't participate.

money?

 

[hash tag]

It is a lot less difficult being in opposition than in power as you are not making decisions and defending them. In opposition you just criticise the party in power. This, for me, makes labour's position even more concerning. If they are this bad in opposition what would they be like in power?

 

[two sheds]

you just criticise the party in power.

Hence Starmer's cunning plan ...

 

[newme]

Why do you think that is? Clearly it's not because anarchists don't participate.

Well with the voting rates going down and non involvement it's all guesswork. Going on people I know who don't bother it's because they can't see the point. Having never won a vote and taken more interest than it appears most people do I can see why its off putting to lose continually while trying. Not the politics board. So pushing both sides is a sore point.

It's likely the same as usual, younger people don't vote, older ones are more Conservative overall and vote more consistently. Lib dems fucked up their attempt, brexit fucked things up more. Then corbyn got some youth support and was ousted. Hard to be that optimistic a that point.

Not sure where anarchists specially come into this. Unless you are trying to say all the voters on this poll were anarchists?

 

[newme]

It is a lot less difficult being in opposition than in power as you are not making decisions and defending them. In opposition you just criticise the party in power. This, for me, makes labour's position even more concerning. If they are this bad in opposition what would they be like in power?

I don't have faith they will do better than the tories, I just can't see the tories getting any better after this long with the record they have.

 

[hash tag]

Hence Starmer's cunning stunt ....

Really, so cunning no one knows what it is. Yet.

 

[Rob Ray]

Going on people I know who don't bother it's because they can't see the point.

See this, from the perspective of a pro-vote person, should be the main point of inquiry. Why non-voters in the general public (as opposed to political nerds on U75) feel that way and whether there are solid arguments that could persuade them to bother. But it usually isn't, in fact ime bringing the topic up is usually followed by some sort of insulting comment and/or an attempt at emotional blackmail. We know quite a lot of these people can be mobilised, because they came out for Corbs for a while. But they aren't now. Which suggests the offer isn't good enough/isn't believed, in which case no amount of hand-wringing or angry denunciation will help. A pro-voter who's in any way serious about the project needs to sell, rather than hector (and tbh, aim it better at people who aren't politically committed - ime folks will take loads of time to try and persuade me, a difficult bastard, to vote when there's about 1,000,000 other people who'd be far easier going).

younger people don't vote

Again, why? The Corbyn experiment aside, it's not like they get disillusioned through trying it. But they do grow up under a revolving door of People in Politics Not Doing Shit for Us. Simply telling them "ah but Labour's not as bad" doesn't seem to get taken very seriously, does it.

Unless you are trying to say all the voters on this poll were anarchists?

Not all but a fair few of the nos, and anarchists are generally the ones who'll actually bother to make a political point about it.

 

[hash tag]

I hear that Keithy has a plan...to shuffle people around tomorrow.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

We know quite a lot of these people can be mobilised, because quite a lot of them came out for Corbs for a while. But they aren't now.

conversely (and not in any way saying i agree with their decision) wasn't there some suggestion that a noticeable proportion of people who turned out and voted tory in the 'red wall' areas in 2019 had previously been non-voters?

 

[polly]

I didn't vote Labour last time

Why not?