Hold your nose and vote Labour?

[Pickman's model]

Their game at this point is being Tories but looking more competent at it than the Tories. And being called Labour so it's ok for liberals to go along with it.

They have but the appearance of competence, not the substance of it

 

[Dystopiary]

They have but the appearance of competence, not the substance of it

Yes, hence "looking more" rather than "being more": they're clearly not to be trusted at all.

 

[hash tag]

They have but the appearance of competence, not the substance of it

No. They don't even have the appearance of competence

 

[Pickman's model]

No. They don't even have the appearance of competence

Fair point. They strive for the appearance of competence

 

[Elpenor]

They have but the appearance of competence, not the substance of it

I hope so, I really don’t want their terrible policies implemented competently

 

[teqniq]

You have to wonder why they would spend such large sums of money. Spite? Revenge? Possibly. Whatever the reason it's not a good look and could easily fuck their chances come election time, never mind all the lovely corporate sponsorship:

Labour costs pass £500,000 in hearing over leaked antisemitism report

Exclusive: Spending on case against five former staffers is rising, causing concern among some in party

www.theguardian.com

 

[Pickman's model]

You have to wonder why they would spend such large sums of money. Spite? Revenge? Possibly. Whatever the reason it's not a good look and could easily fuck their chances come election time, never mind all the lovely corporate sponsorship:

Labour costs pass £500,000 in hearing over leaked antisemitism report

Exclusive: Spending on case against five former staffers is rising, causing concern among some in party

www.theguardian.com

Yeh just coming here to post that in support of hash tag's claim about competence

 

[hash tag]

Yeh just coming here to post that in support of hash tag's claim about competence

Sadly, it's not just about competence though. Their policies, ULEZ and Khan, some of the politicians themselves and Their motivation

 

[hash tag]

Do I feel this way about labour because I'm old, stuck In my ways and can't move on from when labour was a party for working class folk etc.

 

[newme]

I am not a fan of labour in general but surprised about the result. I get voting on principles, which is why I have never felt comfortable voting for any of them. But it cannot possibly be worse than more Tories, which is what we get if the only realisitic opposition is ignored for fringe groups.

 

[The39thStep]

A couple of months old this article however this is a fascinating insight into how the Labour Party maintains quality control in its local franchises ie branches

https://archive.ph/T9JqS

 

[bluescreen]

it cannot possibly be worse than more Tories, which is what we get if the only realisitic opposition is ignored for fringe groups.

QFT

 

[newme]

QFT

What?

 

[danny la rouge]

But it cannot possibly be worse than more Tories, which is what we get if the only realisitic opposition is ignored for fringe groups.

So those are the realistic choices, yes? - real Tories; or something called “realistic opposition”, which means more or less the same but claiming competence.

You can surely see why a lot of people are unenthused about going out and actively voting in favour of the latter?

A reaction which, incidentally, may not involve voting in favour of a fringe party. And for most of the unenthused won’t.

Party politics is not the only way of doing politics. Indeed, it actually isn’t a way of doing politics.

 

[bluescreen]

What?

quoted for truth, because it cannot possibly be worse than more Tories. (Maybe someone can explain how.)
Nor do I see any realistic alternative to Labour,

 

[bluescreen]

So those are the realistic choices, yes? - real Tories; or something called “realistic opposition”, which means more or less the same but claiming competence.

You can surely see why a lot of people are unenthused about going out and actively voting in favour of the latter?

A reaction which, incidentally, may not involve voting in favour of a fringe party. And for most of the unenthused won’t.

Party politics is not the only way of doing politics. Indeed, it actually isn’t a way of doing politics.

That's all very well but short of violence I don't see how else you get a government that actually makes laws and (sort of) gets to have them work.

 

[Rob Ray]

Here's one way: Labour is voted in, and while proclaiming itself the progressive alternative, continues to do all of the same things as the Tories. This helps persuade the general public that There Is No Alternative, continuing the (decades-long) process of alienating people from political life and persuading them that fighting back in any form is pointless. Several years on, another election takes place. Labour is the "tired" party, and the remaining voter base (mostly varieties of centrist or Tory) decides "it's time for the other lot to have a turn." The other lot, by now, has tacked further right in order to differentiate itself from Labour. The dial of what centrism is slides as a result.

That's not a prediction, that's historical precedent.

 

[two sheds]

Starmer's such a compulsive liar that I think* that after the election he'll abandon all his latest pledges to the electorate and go back and implement all the pledges to the labour he went back on after he became leader.











* I don't really

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

I come more to the (admittedly uncharitable and a little arrogant) view that obsessing over the importance of your individual vote, - it’s importance, the necessity for it to be conscientious or effective - is yet another example of endemic “main character syndrome”, solipsistic individualism and consumerist narcissism that are both promoted by and welcome to the ruling class at this late and terminal stage of decaying capitalism…

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Party politics is not the only way of doing politics. Indeed, it actually isn’t a way of doing politics.

One of the major problems of Corbynism was that a generation of people, nominally or putatively interested in political change, have (to date) often only experienced political activity almost exclusively based around engagement in party political activity and endless dead-end attempts to 'change the Labour Party’ (akin to efforts to make leopards change their spots). The need to re-remember Danny's point above is vital. The fact that the media class obsession with the activities of 650 people and their organisations in Westminster is utterly irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of people also needs to be emphasised.

 

[newme]

Here's one way: Labour is voted in, and while proclaiming itself the progressive alternative, continues to do all of the same things as the Tories. This helps persuade the general public that There Is No Alternative, continuing the (decades-long) process of alienating people from political life and persuading them that fighting back in any form is pointless. Several years on, another election takes place. Labour is the "tired" party, and the remaining voter base (mostly varieties of centrist or Tory) decides "it's time for the other lot to have a turn." The other lot, by now, has tacked further right in order to differentiate itself from Labour. The dial of what centrism is slides as a result.

That's not a prediction, that's historical precedent.

Yeh seen it in the US too. Think there both crap really but the only party to suddenly gain a lot of new support was.... ukip.

Labour had some support with corbyn going lefter but he then managed to fuck that up. Papers etc were always going to be against him but he made it pretty easy to target him on a couple of major issues. Of course his party being against him helped nothing.

Happy to consider any alternatives, suggestions?

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Happy to consider any alternatives, suggestions?

Well, this initiative might be worthwhile if it can build so that it can gain support of the disillusioned and angry in the wake of the coming Labour betrayals and authoritarianism:

Transform | Together, we call for a new party of the left

I've just signed the call

transformpolitics.uk

To succeed it will probably need to:
1/ Keep out/minimise the influence of Trot sects, whilst simultaneously bringing on board large numbers of those who were encouraged into Labour by the Corbyn project or the Greens by the “Green surge”, but have now left those parties.
2/ Treat the coming election as mainly a platform to build what comes after rather than fantasising about challenging/taking many seats from the main parties
3/ Focus on building a network in local communities and supporting workplace organising, with electoral activity as very much a secondary expression of that
The initial principles are good and both Breakthrough and the rump of Left Unity have some decent activists, so the basis for growth is there - we will have to see.

 

[redsquirrel]

That's all very well but short of violence I don't see how else you get a government that actually makes laws and (sort of) gets to have them work.

Are you serious?

I mean myself, and probably danny la rouge., would be up for a bit of revolution. But the idea that the choices are (1) vote Labour forever or (2) take up your guns has been dealt with so many times that I cannot believe you have actually read the thread.

The Tories, like many centre right parties in the west, were in power during the 50s/60s yet the working class managed to obtain huge wins and improvements in to its conditions. In contrast compare the losses suffered during the New Labour years. Does that not give you some thought that maybe there might be more to things than just what colour is in fashion?

 

[redsquirrel]

One of the major problems of Corbynism was that a generation of people, nominally or putatively interested in political change, have (to date) often only experienced political activity almost exclusively based around engagement in party political activity and endless dead-end attempts to 'change the Labour Party’ (akin to efforts to make leopards change their spots). The need to re-remember Danny's point above is vital. The fact that the media class obsession with the activities of 650 people and their organisations in Westminster is utterly irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of people also needs to be emphasised.

TBF most of the TINAs on this thread aren't Cobynistas, they're mostly the crypto-Lib Dem mob.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

TBF most of the TINAs on this thread aren't Cobynistas, they're mostly the crypto-Lib Dem mob.

Ah, okay. This place has gone seriously weird of late.

 

[kabbes]

Happy to consider any alternatives, suggestions?

A good start would be to not give a positive endorsement to people that you are ideologically antagonistic towards. Otherwise, things never end well.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Honestly don't know if I'll vote for them or not. I live in a Labour safe seat so don't really need to anyway. But my political despair is overdetermined at this point anyway. The anti-socialist horror story that was December 2019 shows me that the public won't endorse an even vaguely leftist politics for a long time. Sure, polls show significant support for leftist economic policies, but when push comes to shove, people are either hoodwinked into voting for some rightwing bullshit or they prioritise rightwing bullshit like Brexit, tough of crime and anti-immigrant crap over their left-wing economic concerns. The public had a once in a lifetime chance of getting social democratic policies back on the agenda and they resounding said 'fuck that shit'. The likes of Starmer and Blair on the one side or the Tories on the other are what we'll get now.

 

[chilango]

Here's one way: Labour is voted in, and while proclaiming itself the progressive alternative, continues to do all of the same things as the Tories. This helps persuade the general public that There Is No Alternative, continuing the (decades-long) process of alienating people from political life and persuading them that fighting back in any form is pointless. Several years on, another election takes place. Labour is the "tired" party, and the remaining voter base (mostly varieties of centrist or Tory) decides "it's time for the other lot to have a turn." The other lot, by now, has tacked further right in order to differentiate itself from Labour. The dial of what centrism is slides as a result.

That's not a prediction, that's historical precedent.

This, so much fucking this.

The last r/w Labour government led directly to the BNP becoming - however briefly - an electoral force.

 

[newme]

A good start would be to not give a positive endorsement to people that you are ideologically antagonistic towards. Otherwise, things never end well.

Was never a positive endorsement. It was based entirely on getting rid of the tories. Like in the US where not even the Democrats really wanted Biden, but it was that or trump.

I've no positive thoughts about any of them really. Would be a nice change tho.

 

[kabbes]

Was never a positive endorsement. It was based entirely on getting rid of the tories. Like in the US where not even the Democrats really wanted Biden, but it was that or trump.

I've no positive thoughts about any of them really. Would be a nice change tho.

A vote for a party is a positive endorsement for that party, regardless of whether or not you want it to be. You think that they’re sitting there thinking, “oh we got voted in but maybe newme didn’t really like us after all”? No, they are thinking, “yes, we got in, the country want us to be in power. We’re doing things right.”