Historic defeat of Fianna Fail

[8den]

so you reckon thats the most likely outcome nigel - for labour to go into coalition with fg?

It's been likely since before the election was even called.

 

[krtek a houby]

I've never liked that clown at all. Looks funny though.

He had it shaved when I knew him. Didn't know he was still active.

 

[rekil]

 

[frogwoman]

It's been likely since before the election was even called.

Sorry - I actually don't know much about irish politics, at all. Fianna Fail and FG seem like they almsot have the same policies?

 

[nino_savatte]

Sorry - I actually don't know much about irish politics, at all. Fianna Fail and FG seem like they almsot have the same policies?

There are subtle differences between them but, they are both right wing. FF is probably the more populist of the two.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

FG are neoliberal Tories (with fascist roots) and technocratic overtones and FF are neoliberal Tories with nationalist and populist overtones?

 

[frogwoman]

lol, they sound fantastic

 

[Idris2002]

FG are neoliberal Tories (with fascist roots) and technocratic overtones and FF are neoliberal Tories with nationalist and populist overtones?

That's not a bad way of putting it, except that FF lost their populist mojo in the Ahern and Cowen years.

And FG are quite obnoxious enough without having to label them fascist. They did absorb the Blueshirts in the 1930s, and that's always been a handy stick to beat them with, but in fairness the original leadership swiftly moved to exclude Eoin O'Duffy and his clique from positions of leadership.

 

[frogwoman]

So are they basically two slightly different versions of the Tories, whereas in england they'd be the same party, in ireland there are two of them?

 

[rekil]

lol, they sound fantastic

I know a former secretary general of FF and he once told me that they were basically socialist. (!) Haven't seen him for ages, he jumped ship a while back, but FF copied Nu Lab a lot. In Europe, FG are allied with Berlusconi, Merkel, Sarkozy and Spain's PP while FF are in with the Lib Dems and Germany's FDP, but possibly only because they can't both be in the same grouping cos of the hatin'.

 

[frogwoman]

I know a former secretary general of FF and he once told me that they were basically socialist.

 

[Idris2002]

I thought FF sat with the Gaullists in the Euro parliament? (Gaullism is probably the nearest international comparison to FFism, I suppose)

 

[rekil]

FG's Kieran Dennison. Nasty wee fecker by all accounts. Glad he didn't get in. (Dublin West)

 

[Fedayn]

I know a former secretary general of FF and he once told me that they were basically socialist. (!) Haven't seen him for ages, he jumped ship a while back, but FF copied Nu Lab a lot. In Europe, FG are allied with Berlusconi, Merkel, Sarkozy and Spain's PP while FF are in with the Lib Dems and Germany's FDP, but possibly only because they can't both be in the same grouping cos of the hatin'.

Bertie Ahern claimed he was a socialist a few years back.

 

[Idris2002]

I don't think Bertie was quite right in the head. It was quite a common talking point a few years ago, amongst the Irish times reading classes (I saw it in the Phoenix as well) - the idea that fF was somehow Ireland's structural equivalent to the British Labour Party. It was utter nonsense, but it suited a lot of people to believe it, especially those with a big 'cultural cringe'.

Further Ming the Merciless revelations:

However, Independent TD for Roscommon-South Leitrim Luke “Ming” Flanagan called on Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny to open talks with him on agreeing a programme of work he could support in government. Mr Flanagan said he shared common ground with Fine Gael on a number of critical issues, including the urgent renegotiation of the EU-IMF deal.

Never.

Trust.

A.

Hippy.

 

[rekil]

Bertie Ahern claimed he was a socialist a few years back.

That's right, sure didn't FF spend a few bob on playgrounds in the inner city. What more do yiz want.

 

[eoin_k]

I've tried to piece together who the independents are. Feel free to correct or comment:
DONNELLY, Stephen Right (Independent)
FLANAGAN, Luke 'Ming' Left (Stoner)
FLEMING, Tom Right (Ex-FF)
GREALISH Noel Right (Ex-PD)
HALLIGAN, John Left (ex-Stickie)
HEALY, Séamus Left (Workers and Unemployed Action)
HEALY RAE, Michael Right (FF Clan)
LOWRY, Michael Right (Ex-FG)
McGRATH, Finian Left? (Healthcare)
McGRATH, Mattie Right (Ex-FF)
MURPHY, Catherine Left (ex-Stickie)
O'SULLIVAN, Maureen Left (Protege of ex-stickie)
PRINGLE, Thomas Left (Anti-Treaty (EU not Anglo-Irish))
ROSS, Shane Right (Ex FG)
WALLACE, Mick Left (property Developer)

 

[nino_savatte]

Bertie Ahern claimed he was a socialist a few years back.

PMSL!!!!

 

[rekil]

Ming is a liberal at best surely, but with a FF father and FG mother even that's pushing it. Incidentally, he owns (inherited) bogland and he's campaigning to overturn an EU ban (which affects 32 of the country's 1600 bogs) on turfcutting. Cutehoorism 2.0.

Bertie Ahern claimed he was a socialist a few years back.

In case anyone thinks we're making that up, this is from an interview in 2004.

“I have a very socialist view on life, I have it in my mind that I own the Phoenix Park, and I own the Botanic Gardens, I own the zoo. Because the state participates in these things, I am free to go in whatever the opening hours are.”

Higgins's response in the Dail is here. Scroll down to 855 bit (for the truly bored like, but amusing enough).

 

[sleaterkinney]

Ming is a liberal at best surely, but with a FF father and FG mother even that's pushing it. Incidentally, he owns (inherited) bogland and he's campaigning to overturn an EU ban (which affects 32 of the country's 1600 bogs) on turfcutting. Cutehoorism 2.0.

Nearly everyone owns a bit of bog in Ireland ffs. I don't think anyone had him down as a Trot.

 

[rekil]

Nearly everyone owns a bit of bog in Ireland ffs.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Seriously - most people do where I come from.

 

[rekil]

Seriously - most people do where I come from.

I should hardly need to point out that most people in Ireland don't come from Roscommon or the vicinity thereof.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I should hardly need to point out that most people in Ireland don't come from Roscommon or the vicinity thereof.

Indeed, but this bloke does, so (inherited) bogland isn't unique. Should he have sold it before he started his campaign?

 

[8den]

So are they basically two slightly different versions of the Tories, whereas in england they'd be the same party, in ireland there are two of them?

Yup and because both of them voted differently on a piece of legislation in about a century ago they are essentially different. Or something

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Originally Posted by The39thStep View Post
Hows my tenner at 4-1 for sinn fein to get 14 seats or more?

On a knife edge, now at 13 but I'm struggling to see where seat 14 might come from ... Laois-Offaly looks one to watch.

Laois-Offaly did (eventually!!) indeed provide the 14th Sinn Fein seat so your bet has come in. With 14 for them, five for ULA and 4-5 left leaning independents, the left outnumber the 'official opposition' of 20 FF.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

You go back to the 30's and FF rhetoric wasnt that different to that of the Sandinistas in our time say. At times quite radically left nationalist and that style of politics with some real benefits that came to workers when they were in power explains the way people like my grandad and nan who were both strong trades unionists and natural Social Democrats always voted FF rather than Labour. By my mums generation growing up in the 50's and 60's people like her were breaking away to the Left but still had a grudging respect for FF because of it's perceived 'rough around the collar' feel. And even now some more nationalist Lefties will have a nagging suspicion that seeing the FF vote collapse isn't great if it means the ascendancy of the Blueshirts. Never mind that as others have pointed out FG in modern form has nothing fascist about it and in fact has been to the liberal wing socially on abortion etc when compared with FF. And then again for rabid anti nationalist Lefties like my dad who is more a natural Sticky FF are evil incarnate who duped the working class with idiot populism and their demise can't come quickly enough. To people like that FG are natural coalition partners which is why the ex Workers party people in Labour are much more relaxed about a Lab FG coalition. To them it's just finishing the democratic revolution that was stalled by FF hoodwinking and social conservatism.

It's all dead simple really

 

[rekil]

Thanks for your responses. I've just learned something.

It's hard to get a feel for another country's politics sometimes. Voting FF or FG, it seems, has quite complex social meanings. I remember someone trying to explain to me why people voted for the various virtually identical parties in Belgium, and I had similar problems. It isn't simple left/right there either.

Would I be right to say that the word 'conservative' means something different in Ireland from Britain – something less pro-business?

Also (sorry for all the questions), I presume Sinn Fein voters are left-wing broadly speaking. Why are people voting for them rather than the Socialist or Labour parties?

Article here by Sunday Independent token lefty Gene Kerrigan which might help you with this sort of thing.

Joe Higgins is in the Socialist Party. The name is on the tin. A whole lot of people are in the United Left Alliance -- you know where they stand. Ditto the Workers' Party. The Greens or even Labour give a hint of an ideological complexion. But the right-wing policies of McCreevy, Ahern, Kenny and Varadkar come clothed in party names drawn from a semi-mystical Gaelic past.

When Michael McDowell and his fellow rightists formed a party in the Eighties, they might have called themselves the Free Market Extremists. Instead, they were the Progressive Democrats. (Everyone wants progress, everyone needs democracy.)

Notions of populist nationalism -- beloved of old FF -- were swept away by the apparent success of the Celtic Tiger period. A generation of politicians eagerly adopted half-baked and wholly-swallowed right-wing platitudes -- chop the tax base, privatise, deregulate, unleash the rich. They sucked relentlessly on these ideological soothers, regardless of circumstance or outcome.

 

[dennisr]

Elections see collapse of Fianna Fail, the traditional establishment party:
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/4888

"The Socialist Party, who initiated the process that led to the formation of the United Left Alliance, got two TDs (members of the Dail – the Irish parliament) elected. Clare Daly was elected for the first time to the Dail in the Dublin North constituency (with 7,513 first preference votes or 15.2%). Joe Higgins was returned to the Dail representing Dublin West (8,084 or 19%). ...

In Cork North Central, Socialist Party candidate Mick Barry had an outstanding campaign, polling 4,803 (9.2%) first preference votes, nearly three times the vote he got in 2007. This puts the Socialist Party in a very strong position to challenge for a Dail seat whenever the next general election takes place. ...

The United Left Alliance (ULA) is comprised of the Socialist Party, the People Before Profit Alliance, the Workers and Unemployed Action Group (Tipperary) and the independent socialist group in Sligo. The three other ULA TDs elected were Joan Collins (PBPA) in Dublin South Central, with a first preference vote of 6,574 or 12.9%, Richard Boyd Barrett (PBPA/SWP), in Dun Laoghaire, with 6,206 or 10.95% and Seamus Healy (WUAG) with 8,818 or 21.3%. The ULA stood in eleven of the twelve Dublin constituencies and got 38,808 first preference votes or 7.6% of the total vote in those constituencies."

 

[rekil]