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HEADS UP - BNP: The Fraud Exposed - Panorama BBC1 Mon 10/10/11 - 8.30pm

I liked the way Nick Griffin was too cowardly to give that interview to the BBC. He walks off and leaves his friends to do his dirty work for him. The fact that they set up the BBC like that, and actually assaulted one of them, shows what crybabies they are. Why are you all knocking the BBC? What these kinds of programmes show is what pathetic losers the BNP are - and so are most of the people who support them. That's what these parties thrive on - total negativity. And I suspect the wrongdoing they have been accused of is just the tip of the iceberg. It will all come out eventually.
 
audiotech said:
Listed in an email from Hope not Hate. The BBC found that:



  • The BNP has submitted fraudulent accounts to its auditors and the Electoral Commission
  • The BNP has used European Union money to fund its party organisation
  • Nick Griffin has hidden large donors from the electoral commission and had a slush fund that the party treasurer has no access to
  • BNP officials allegedly held a party worker against her wishes in a locked van after she refused to comply with their instructions
  • The BNP lied to the Electoral Commission to justify why it had submitted late returns
Click to expand...

Whatever you think of HnH and however flat the programme, that all spells deep doo-doo for Griffin and his pals (and the internal enemies he's made).
 
The prog was a bit light. A running total of debts and the consequences of bankruptcy would have been pleasing. The numbers are big, and presumably indisputable, considering what I've read on here.

And no mention of the recent Employment Tribunal, a d Emploment Appeal Tribunal, they lost. Even after digging up an ex-Treasurer (?) to take the fall for.

Was too big on personality (we all know they're shitbags obvs) and not enough "The party owes £x and is 3 months off collapsing entirely *applause*"
 
audiotech said:
Which left?

The Labour party was in power under Blair (described as "soft left") at the time, whose thoughts on gaining power was to occupy the "radical centre". Some state that Blair was more a "populist" than of the 'left', or 'right' - his declared "Third Way". Then there's Gordon Brown, who it is said believes in an 'ethical view of socialism', including a 'commitment to equality'. Before Blair won the election in 1997 the Labour left was noticeable by its absence. No surprise really after Militant and the Bennites were seen off in earlier years. There's little left of the Labour left these days.
Click to expand...

any left you want audiotech
 
Grandma Death said:
How in this case were panorama lying?
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Throughout they made assertions unsupported by facts - even the ridiciolous siphoning electricity allegation, went unproven. What we were asked to take at face value was; 'an insider told me'. Who knows if there was an insider? Or whether or not said insider, if he/she existed was actually a paid agent of the state?
 
Joe Reilly said:
Throughout they made assertions unsupported by facts - even the ridiciolous siphoning electricity allegation, went unproven. What we were asked to take at face value was; 'an insider told me'. Who knows if there was an insider? Or whether or not said insider, if he/she existed was actually a paid agent of the state?
Click to expand...

Quoting an in named source doesn't mean the allegation is wrong. Apart from the allegation of electricity what else?
 
Joe Reilly said:
Throughout they made assertions unsupported by facts - even the ridiciolous siphoning electricity allegation, went unproven. What we were asked to take at face value was; 'an insider told me'. Who knows if there was an insider? Or whether or not said insider, if he/she existed was actually a paid agent of the state?
Click to expand...
you shouldn't despise such reporting, which is the acme of the journalistic profession these days.
 
Grandma Death said:
Quoting an in named source doesn't mean the allegation is wrong. Apart from the allegation of electricity what else?
Click to expand...

Well, even taking those making the allegations at face value (i.e. that they had no state involvement) Panorama glossed over the fact that all, I think, are now involved in other far-right political groups. If I remember rightly, the phrase actually used by Panorama was "rival political group" (Hope Not Hate, could be described as a "rival" group, as could Searchlight) - which is deliberately ambiguous and encourages the audience to conclude that those spilling the beans did so as a result of seeing the error of their ways and out of revulsion at the BNP's politics. In actual fact, nothing could be further from the truth - most have ended up in groups that take the view that the BNP isn't fascist enough. This of itself is sufficient motivation for them to want to queer the BNP's pitch.
 
past caring said:
Well, even taking those making the allegations at face value (i.e. that they had no state involvement) Panorama glossed over the fact that all, I think, are now involved in other far-right political groups. If I remember rightly, the phrase actually used by Panorama was "rival political group" (Hope Not Hate, could be described as a "rival" group, as could Searchlight) - which is deliberately ambiguous and encourages the audience to conclude that those spilling the beans did so as a result of seeing the error of their ways and out of revulsion at the BNP's politics. In actual fact, nothing could be further from the truth - most have ended up in groups that take the view that the BNP isn't fascist enough. This of itself is sufficient motivation for them to want to queer the BNP's pitch.
Click to expand...

Ok I take what you're saying-but that doesnt make the allegations less valid-more sloppy 'investigative' journalism. There has been talk of misappropriate use of funds within the BNP for some time now. I think this programme put some meat on the bones-not perfect-but put the allegations in a mainstream programme at peak time. AFAIK this is the first time these allegations have surfaced on TV-and for that I for one am glad the programme was aired as its more reasons to say to people who may vote for them 'Can the BNP be really trusted'
 
The fact that Panorama could offer up as its main evidence only claims made by individuals with either clear personal or political axes to grind doesn't make the allegations less valid? Remind me to get my brief to object if I'm ever up on charges and unlucky enough to find you on the jury.

Do you think whether they can "be really trusted" is a question foremost to the minds of those who might decide to vote BNP?
 
Grandma Death said:
Ok I take what you're saying-but that doesnt make the allegations less valid-more sloppy 'investigative' journalism. There has been talk of misappropriate use of funds within the BNP for some time now. I think this programme put some meat on the bones-not perfect-but put the allegations in a mainstream programme at peak time. AFAIK this is the first time these allegations have surfaced on TV-and for that I for one am glad the programme was aired as its more reasons to say to people who may vote for them 'Can the BNP be really trusted'
Click to expand...

'You mean can they be trusted' in relation to the thieving bastards in the mainstream parties? As for the 'talk of the misappropriation of funds within the BNP' the clear implication from that Searchlight/M15 scuttlebut was that senior members, including the Chairman, were doing so purely for personal gain.

Panorama never suggested/hinted/even less than hinted, that this was the case. So who really gives a fuck what else they do with the money?

I repeat, if this is all they have after fucks knows how long an investigation, it does tend to suggest that the BNP is presently more even-keeled than certain interested parties would have you believe.

It's hard to know whether when it was commissioned the BBC were promised more, but to go with the final product as it was, sort of smacks of desperation.
 
Grandma Death said:
Ok I take what you're saying-but that doesnt make the allegations less valid-more sloppy 'investigative' journalism.
Click to expand...

Is it still 'sloppy journalism' if the people pointing the finger are actually paid agents of the state? And for that matter is the 'sloppy journalism' still journalism, if there was no actual Panorama investigation as such?

Instead, what if as is likely they were approached with a pre-prepared narrative about BNP 'corruption', and given the the names and signed affidavits, of former BNP members, and lets not forget - not too long ago bone fide card-carrying fascists - prepared to (for money, revenge, M15) do the dirty on TV.

How respectable does it look then?
 
past caring said:
The fact that Panorama could offer up as its main evidence only claims made by individuals with either clear personal or political axes to grind doesn't make the allegations less valid? Remind me to get my brief to object if I'm ever up on charges and unlucky enough to find you on the jury.

Do you think whether they can "be really trusted" is a question foremost to the minds of those who might decide to vote BNP?
Click to expand...

Hang on. There was more than just statements from ex members. Ex employees. Also factual observations about investigations past and present as well as people who had no connection with the bnp looking at their accounts to offer opinion. This programme did was not wholly made up of ex bnp members.
 
Grandma Death said:
Hang on. There was more than just statements from ex members. Ex employees. Also factual observations about investigations past and present as well as people who had no connection with the bnp looking at their accounts to offer opinion. This programme did was not wholly made up of ex bnp members.
Click to expand...
You think Dowson and his sister and law are not far-righters? Did you not see his spiel about the white race and its history? You might as well call Tynadall an ex-employee.
 
Ok...so we totally disregard the allegations. They simply aren't true? People like collett are maggots....I have no time for them but that doesn't mean the allegations are completely false.
 
one wonders how many people work / have worked for the BNP who aren't ideologically committed to the cause? it's a nonsense distinction tbh.
 
Grandma Death said:
Ok...so we totally disregard the allegations. They simply aren't true? People like collett are maggots....I have no time for them but that doesn't mean the allegations are completely false.
Click to expand...
No one has said disregard or disbelieve the allegations - they've said they were backed up by zero presented evidence in the program - nothing whatsoever, and that the people presenting the allegations are (at the very least) people still in the 'scene' and with both serious grudges against griffin and material reasons/benefits to be gained from slinging dirt around - regardless of the truth of the claims. That's how these people work. You can't just say that as you don't like the person that the allegations are made about then you're going to either believe them with no evidence or lower your standards of proof. That's to jump right into the shit with these people.
 
butchersapron said:
No one has said disregard or disbelieve the allegations - they've said they were backed up by zero presented evidence in the program - nothing whatsoever, and that the people presenting the allegations are (at the very least) people still in the 'scene' and with both serious grudges against griffin and material reasons/benefits to be gained from slinging dirt around - regardless of the truth of the claims. That's how these people work. You can't just say that as you don't like the person that the allegations are made about then you're going to either believe them with no evidence or lower your standards of proof. That's to jump right into the shit with these people.
Click to expand...

Well actually people are disregarding the allegations because where they came from butchers. Some of that proof turned out to be people disputing accounts (amongst other things) and some on this forum are saying because they have a beef we can in effect disregard the evidence. In fact if you look at the bnp website they are saying pretty much the same thing as others here. Yes there are people with a grudge but that doesn't necessarily mean the substance of their allegations are worthless. You could use the accusation of ex employees having a grudge every time someone leaks 'inside' information but that wouldn't get us very far would it?
 
killer b said:
one wonders how many people work / have worked for the BNP who aren't ideologically committed to the cause? it's a nonsense distinction tbh.
Click to expand...

yeah, exactly, or full-timers for any political organisation, you would have to not only believe the bnp's dogma, but believe it more than others.
 
There's only one way we'll get solid evidence is when their books are properly inspected with a full investigation but I'm inclined to believe the allegations even if in this case they came from the mouths of ex bnp members.
 
Grandma Death said:
Well actually people are disregarding the allegations because where they came from butchers. Some of that proof turned out to be people disputing accounts (amongst other things) and some on this forum are saying because they have a beef we can in effect disregard the evidence. In fact if you look at the bnp website they are saying pretty much the same thing as others here. Yes there are people with a grudge but that doesn't necessarily mean the substance of their allegations are worthless. You could use the accusation of ex employees having a grudge every time someone leaks 'inside' information but that wouldn't get us very far would it?
Click to expand...

im not saying the allegations aren;'t true, but these are all people with a history of lying and exaggeration. the far right is full of people like this and also straight up mental cases, and i wouldn't necessarily want to take their word for anything. you can't just believe stuff just because it's about people you don't like. i hate the fucking bnp as well, but the people telling these stories and setting up/joining rival organisations are hardly bastions of the truth or they wouldnt have fecking become full-timers for the bnp in the first place ...
 
Grandma Death said:
Well actually people are disregarding the allegations because where they came from butchers. Some of that proof turned out to be people disputing accounts (amongst other things) and some on this forum are saying because they have a beef we can in effect disregard the evidence. In fact if you look at the bnp website they are saying pretty much the same thing as others here. Yes there are people with a grudge but that doesn't necessarily mean the substance of their allegations are worthless. You could use the accusation of ex employees having a grudge every time someone leaks 'inside' information but that wouldn't get us very far would it?
Click to expand...
And in that situation where claims are made what do you use to decide the truth of the case? Evidence. Evidence was precisely what was lacking from this show - or can you show me some presented evidence that i've missed? The claim is the first step - both in this case and in the case of ex-employees of normal companies. Presentation of proof is the traditional next step You say there was proof presented in the program "Some of that proof turned out to be people disputing accounts" - that's a claim, the original claim repeated in fact - that's not proof, that's not the second necessary step.

And as far as i can see, other posters are simply being wary or refusing to say that the claims are true based on suspicions of the motivations of those making the claims -and the very apparent gap between claim and proof. That's pretty sensible - not just in this case.
 
We may not have much concrete evidence that the BNP have done what the programme say they have done, but I think the assumption that there's no smoke without fire is good enough - taking into account that we know the main parties are no saints either. As I said before, the one thing that we actually did witness does seem to show they have quite a lot to hide. Or it might just be the paranoia of these groups (and it's equally true of the far left as well) - that anyone who doesn't support them must be out to get them. But it's useful to remember that a feature of fascism is its anti-intellectual stance. They don't care whether their arguments are rational or not, just as long as they can get enough idiots to support them. And of course their unwritten policy is: if anyone starts an argument with you, just beat them up.

Anyway, it looks like the BNP are starting to break up. Good.
 
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