Hardline nationalists who were actually born abroad

[Random]

A lot of important/hardline nationalists were not actually born in the country that their nationalism revolved around.

Eamon De Valera was born in the USA, Sean MacStiofan was born in England. Garibaldi was born in what is nowadays France, Kemal Atarturk was born in modern-day Greece, Hitler was from Austria and, of course, Barack Obama was born in Kenya.

There's something going on here, isn't there? Something similar to the zeal of the convert, the way someone from the periphery is over-eager to assert their national identity?

 

[Belushi]

It's very common. Though Ataturk being born in modern-day Greece is reading history backwards a bit, as is Hitler being born in Austrai to an extent.

 

[krtek a houby]

Obama is a hardline nationalist?

 

[butchersapron]

Haw haw

 

[butchersapron]

Obama is a hardline nationalist?

You really do not do 'umour do you?

 

[krtek a houby]

You really do not do 'umour do you?

Dunno, I put up with your tired old schtick

 

[Random]

Obama is a hardline nationalist?

He's a one nation Conservative, which is the same thing.

 

[Citizen66]

It can apply to first generation immigrants too. You'd think there would be some universal empathy towards other immigrants but it can lead to bigotry, stemming it seems from the established immigrants wanting the draw bridge to be pulled up so their position isn't threatened by newcomers.

 

[butchersapron]

Tyndall - long long irish stock.

 

[DotCommunist]

like that sikh gentleman who was bnp

 

[Garek]

Though Ataturk being born in modern-day Greece

And a big fan of Greece to, hence Raki.

Fascinating figure Ataturk.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

It can apply to first generation immigrants too. You'd think there would be some universal empathy towards other immigrants but it can lead to bigotry, stemming it seems from the established immigrants wanting the draw bridge to be pulled up so their position isn't threatened by newcomers.

yes - in one long distant workplace, one of the biggest racists among colleagues was an italian bloke. hearing grousing about "damn foreigners" and "they should send them back where they come from" in a chico marx accent was a combination of

and depends what you mean "born abroad" - someone whose parents were on overseas military / diplomatic service or some such (or even on holiday) doesn't really class in my book as anything other than the nationality of their parents.

Much bigotry can also be down to insecurity, like the way the biggest homophobes tend to have some insecurity about their own sexuality, so yes, established first generation, or second generation immigrants can be a tad insecure about it all.

It would be totally inappropriate in this context to mention Michael Portillo's union-jack waving bullshit of some years back...

 

[Citizen66]

Maybe by first generation I meant second generation.

Basically I thought first generation were either naturalised immigrants or the progeny of immigrants. Happy to be corrected on this.

 

[DotCommunist]

heh, Portillos dad was an exiled spanish republican. Everyday is a school day

 

[krtek a houby]

He's a one nation Conservative, which is the same thing.

I thought he was a socialist

 

[Random]

I thought he was a socialist

Of the Chicago school

 

[Citizen66]

I thought he was a socialist

As is everyone to the left of Ron Paul in US politics.

 

[butchersapron]

Of the Chicago school

Of Vienna

 

[krtek a houby]

Why is identity so important to people?

 

[butchersapron]

Rise above it ketek

 

[Citizen66]

Why is identity so important to people?

It's important to some minority groups, religious types and nationalists. I don't think anyone else cares.

 

[krtek a houby]

It's important to some minority groups, religious types and nationalists. I don't think anyone else cares.

I don't think I care anymore, either. Too much emphasis placed on identity rather then humankind.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't think I care anymore, either. Too much emphasis placed on identity rather then humankind.

Good to see there's people like us who've gone beyond this.

 

[butchersapron]

It's important to some minority groups, religious types and nationalists. I don't think anyone else cares.

And of course, when identity is used as tool of oppression or resistance.

 

[Citizen66]

I don't think I care anymore, either. Too much emphasis placed on identity rather then humankind.

Hmmm, not sure I identify with 'human kind'. Way too many wankers out there. So maybe I do identify with something and care. Like, my immediate social group / class. Dont like all of those either but have shared economic interests over and above any old fellow Englishman. It's why patriotism and nationalism are basically bollocks. God save the queen, although she doesn't give a fuck about you.

 

[krtek a houby]

Hmmm, not sure I identify with 'human kind'. Way too many wankers out there. So maybe I do identify with something and care. Like, my immediate social group / class. Dont like all of those either but have shared economic interests over and above any old fellow Englishman. It's why patriotism and nationalism are basically bollocks. God save the queen, although she doesn't give a fuck about you.

Only time it bothers is when people use your identity/country you come from against you. Turn it into something derogatory. Mind you, I see patriotism and all that as a form of bigotry...

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Maybe by first generation I meant second generation.

Basically I thought first generation were either naturalised immigrants or the progeny of immigrants. Happy to be corrected on this.

in my book, "first generation" = the people who, as adults, made the decision to migrate; "second generation" = their children

I may be wrong though.

It's important to some minority groups, religious types and nationalists. I don't think anyone else cares.

^ broadly, this.

If you're a minority, there's an element of standing up for yourself, recognising your background / identity / culture and so on. If you're a nationalist type, it's similar motivation based on a questionable belief that your own culture (etc) is "under threat".

Depends whether you're trying to assert a claim to equality or superiority...

 

[Citizen66]

And what butchers says. The powerful use identity to play people off against each other for their own ends.

 

[marty21]

Barack Obama was born in Kenya.

Hawaii surely - they have his birth certificate

As to the point, you are heavily influenced by your parents - my dad taught me Irish rebel songs as a kid, and he often got into fights in pubs in Bath in the 70s due to his views and the loud drunken way he expressed them

 

[Citizen66]

Hawaii surely - they have his birth certificate

Jnr or snr?