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Gezi Park - Istanbul

I think this may have *something* to do with it but I don't think it's the main issue. My girlfriend, who's half Turkish and spent 5 years in Istanbul in her twenties, says it's a very complicated issue. It's hard to explain. I've obviously been exposed to a lot of her Facebook pictures and videos that her friends have taken. But I still don't really know exactly whats going on. What I can gather though, is that it's to do with wider issues and the way he is appealing to the more rural population with Islamic style policies. The whole Southern coast of Turkey have resisted him for a long time. Because they're more in touch with the wider world and they can smell bullshit a mile away, so I've heard.

An interesting point to note is one my gf made earlier. The police tend to be more working class boys and the army more middle class. Especially the ones who stay on after compulsory service. Police tend to be Erdogan style supporters (hence the lack of restraint in attacking or critical thinking) and why the army have always been more inclined to kick out a cunt.

This time around though, most of the generals or officers Erdogan knew were going to be trouble, he got rid of or locked up. I'll have to get more info on this though. Gf did tell me earlier, but apparently there is a prison used mostly for dissidents. You only have to look at the depressing stat of 70 journalists that are currently facing prosecution to see what agenda the government have.




Indeed. The news is now focused on the "occupation" of Taksin Sq. But in Ankara, Izmir and even Besiktas district of Istanbul, more gas and more force is being used. Fucking sick video of a woman getting kicked by four or fives coppers in Ankara earlier.


Yep, I read a little while ago that Turkey is either the worst or one of the worst places on earth to be a journalist. Think we have to keep in mind that one reason the country wasn't let in to the Euro was human rights, tells you how bad things are really...
 
Out numbered?

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Yep, I read a little while ago that Turkey is either the worst or one of the worst places on earth to be a journalist. Think we have to keep in mind that one reason the country wasn't let in to the Euro was human rights, tells you how bad things are really...

Your average person on the street won't know that though. I've heard bits and pieces about Turkish human rights issues through Chomsky, but never really knew the extent.

Most people will know about Iran/Syria etc. Because there is an agenda to destabilise those countries. Or so it would seem given the media attention they get. But when American made tear gas is used on a peaceful protest, it's not heard about until people are reacting violently to being provoked.
 
Gas bombs raining down on protesters near Beşiktaş: volley after volley of them. I've NEVER seen them used that way. This is truly, truly brutal.
HALKHABER.TV has just been hacked & can no longer be followed online, they have just announced. They're trying to rectify the problem.


poster on CIF, lots of Turkish people posting now

btw, shades of Genoa 2001, where helicopters dropped teargas.
 
I think this may have *something* to do with it but I don't think it's the main issue. My girlfriend, who's half Turkish and spent 5 years in Istanbul in her twenties, says it's a very complicated issue. It's hard to explain. I've obviously been exposed to a lot of her Facebook pictures and videos that her friends have taken. But I still don't really know exactly whats going on. What I can gather though, is that it's to do with wider issues and the way he is appealing to the more rural population with Islamic style policies. The whole Southern coast of Turkey have resisted him for a long time. Because they're more in touch with the wider world and they can smell bullshit a mile away, so I've heard.

Isn't that (the part I have put in bold) saying that it pretty much is a conflict between Islamists and secularists?
 
Out numbered?

BLvp49VCMAAdB_n.jpg:large

Erdogan wants it to get violent. Because once people start full on rebellion, he has an excuse to crack down even harder. The general mindset of "gas them, fuck them" is what caused the trouble to kick off in the first place. Only when the worlds attention was on Istanbul did the police pull out. Not "OMG WHAT HAVE I DONE" on Erdogan's part. He's a clever cunt.
 
am writing from Baghdad street in Anatolian part of Istanbul. At least 500.000 protestors are here. And believe me there isn't any problem, because there isn't any police. 500.000 is bigger then many European cities and think that all protests without police. Also in many othher cities protests and probably millions are on the streets right now.

blimey, that is big, social change on its way, or even more vicious repression and maybe counter-movement brought in from the countryside, etc.
 
Your average person on the street won't know that though. I've heard bits and pieces about Turkish human rights issues through Chomsky, but never really knew the extent.

Most people will know about Iran/Syria etc. Because there is an agenda to destabilise those countries. Or so it would seem given the media attention they get. But when American made tear gas is used on a peaceful protest, it's not heard about until people are reacting violently to being provoked.


Of course and I'm not talking about UK people; the point I'm making is that it's looking increasingly like these protests are a result of a suppression most outsiders don't appreciate or even have an awareness off. Which makes the speed and drama of them seem all the more startling news wise...
 
Of course and I'm not talking about UK people; the point I'm making is that it's looking increasingly like these protests are a result of a suppression most outsiders don't appreciate or even have an awareness off. Which makes the speed and drama of them seem all the more startling news wise...

Absolutely. Why a small protest about a park that wasn't meant to be touched during construction, being touched during construction, turned into full on rebellion and protest. Erdogan's comments summerise the imagined frustration most Turks have.

They can do whatever they want. We've made our decision, and we will do as we have decided

Also, a good article here touching on human rights and some of the other issues.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/with-one-voice-they-yelled-erdogan-resign.premium-1.527192
 
Good piece, there's a lot of predictable concern on how this will affect Turkey's standing regionally. I never knew so much Arab money was in the country as it's seen as a safer place than western countries that could freeze if the countries of said Arab money goes Springing...

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...will-impact-turkey-at-home-and-abroad/276456/

And this seems to suggest this isn't comparable to Egypt and Erdogan isn't going anywhere: http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/06/02/erdogans_newest_dilemma?wp_login_redirect=0
 
This was picked up on by the arabist earlier (and many others have suggested army trying to use protesters as sort of proxy army in their attempt to refuse APKP control and consequent lack of traditional power and influence)

Over the course of the past day though, they have been quietly supporting the protesters. They have refused to cooperate with Police requests to use military zones for transportation. At a military hospital in Istanbul they refused to treat police officers, instead handing out gas masks to dissidents. As this exchange between a policeman and soldier attests, relations between the two armed groups are indeed frosty at present. Part of the dialogue translates as:

Policeman: “Next time we should also throw gas bombs here [a military zone].”

Soldier: “If you do it, we will find something to throw to you as well, rest assured.”
 
On secularism/Islamism:

It's not a question of Islamist vs secularist because there is significant 'secular' support for the (soft) Islamist government - most importantly from the business sector - but also from the traditional 'secular' centre-right.
The terms of the debate have changed however - the discriminations faced by the Islamic sector have basically been ended - in practice in nearly all areas under AKP control it has become the norm to have turban-wearing teachers and civil servants - officially the ban remains, it has been kept on hold as a tool to play with for about 5 years ever since the President also became pro-government in 2007 it could have been solved in a flash but it is like a problem kept on purpose to keep the base angry.
Remember that most AKP supporters feel this is all the work of provocateur militarists and/or athiest-communists, they feel the government is the weaker party, the underdog under attack from Kemalists in cahoots with communists, who can't bear to see an Islamist party successful, doing good things.

The government comes out with non-issues all the time to scratch the media and divert any attention - the PM went to the UN and called for Zionism to be treated like fascism, debates about alcohol and alcohol consumption, concern about Christian prayer houses acting as unlicensed churches, missionaries operating as agents, MPs making statements on the unacceptable shortness of female schoolchildren's skirts at graduation ceremonies, promises to make adultery a legal offence, promises to investigate whether aspects of mosque and DIB (Religious Affairs Ministry) mediation could work in civil disputes ... things to keep its Islamist base alert.

The main focus of the protests appears to be to call for the resignation of the prime minister and the government just as after the 1996 Susurluk case. I sense a general wish for more democracy and for more social rights - the plans for the park would have been rejected had they been taken at the sub-city local level - but this is expressed in a call for the ouster of the government.

Had the government been 'secular' (ie traditional centre-right or centre-left) and done the things it had done, increased cases seen by Special Authority Laws from 8,000 in 2002 to over 69,000 - massive stays in prison and then no charge done again on the same people sometimes, near-monopolised the media, massively increased imprisonment rates 2002- 59,400 now something like 140,000, and restricted the rights of civil servants to go on strike, deepened privatisation schemes so that vast tracts of forest and water reserves and publicly-built dams are given to private companies for 100+ year leases - the response against it would have been much swifter.

To those out on the streets from all sorts of persuasions (hard leftist, liberal, the non-Sunnis, centre-left trade unionist, leftist Muslim*, the dissident Kurdish nationalists (who aren't listening to the leaderships call to stay out of it not to damage the peace process), some radical corporatist neo-fascist MHP, hard nationalist 'Kemalist') the feeling is if you support the government and its policies you get all the advantages; if you raise a critical question you are squeezed, silenced or blacklisted - in workplaces, in universities and even schools, in the professional bodies, in the arts, in the military, when facing the police, in the media.

All of them experience their marginalisation in different ways being removed from posts; some are kept back and not allowed promotion in the army, in the medical system, in the universities; some are arrested, some are imprisoned, some have their right to consume what they like curtailed, some have their forests chopped up, some have their homes destroyed and no compensation given, having police inspect them for all sorts of nonsense using anti-terror laws or investigating tax on spurious grounds,.

It's incoherent and loose and wide so it can't be focused like protests in Tunisia and Egypt against the reigning dictator's family. Like I said earlier it's better to see Putin's Russia to understand what's going on (anyone remember the heavy participation in post-election rallies for what was probably fairly minor vote rigging? but you had KPRF, anarchists, liberals, centre-left plus the ultra-right and assorted people all taking part in the anti-Putin rallies, eventually Putin held out) rather than look to Turkey being Pakistan or Iran or Egypt.

For certain reasons the BBC seems utterly unable to connect the dots, it's as if it doesn't want to see that Turkey is like Russia.

In both countries western business interests can do well if they collaborate with the government, but one has been NATO loyal and unwavering, the other one still a strategic adversary - BBC World Service/Worldwide has cut its services and reporters in Eastern Europe, Balkans and Turkey, but increased them to the Middle East and Russia.

* the small but growing 'Anti-Kapitalist Musluman Blok' which features dissidents from the Islamist movement veering into the left but very determined to pronounce themselves religious and hold onto headscarves but some slightly dodgy thinking about the duties of the sexes.
 
This was picked up on by the arabist earlier (and many others have suggested army trying to use protesters as sort of proxy army in their attempt to refuse APKP control and consequent lack of traditional power and influence)

This is not accurate, the army has accepted AKP control when the PM went to the United States in 2012 and again this year there was not a single military representative there - the army are happy not to do legal cases anymore, not to do foreign policy anymore, not to do prisons, they still have OYAK their pensions and their investments.

People are talking about the situation as if it is 1991 or something.
 
* the small but growing 'Anti-Kapitalist Musluman Blok' which features dissidents from the Islamist movement veering into the left but very determined to pronounce themselves religious and hold onto headscarves but some slightly dodgy thinking about the duties of the sexes.


That's particularly interesting, can you tell us any more about this group?
 
Imagine the media coverage if this was happening in Venezuela! It would be wall to wall!

It would be certainly more prominent.

The Russia protests were item number one(!) on the Andrew Marr Sunday news bulletin. That's understandable Russia has a population of 143 million a big country. Turkey is half the size, has a population of over 73 million, a not tiny number of dual citizens (far more than Russian-British dual citizens) and a similar spread of protests but today it's item number four if I remember right.
 
Also sihhi when/if you have time can you talk us through what kind of group the TKP are? I see their flags everywhere on these protest photos but from a cursory google of them in English I can't find out too much about them.
 
That's particularly interesting, can you tell us any more about this group?

Not quite as they appear and a very small group - you have similar things in Indonesia and now in post-Mubarak Egypt too.

Here's half a dozen of their women members:
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Male members on top of a building already defaced by leftist - what appears to be Mucadele Birligi.
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Also sihhi when/if you have time can you talk us through what kind of group the TKP are? I see their flags everywhere on these protest photos but from a cursory google of them in English I can't find out too much about them.

TKP are the most Turkish nationalist of left grouplets, originally from a fracture in the main Turkiye Isci Partisi (Moscow-orientated people's bloc) in 1986, became a party in 2001.
In the 2000s their student groupings used to occasionally have fights with Kurdish nationalists on campuses.
Still has close ties with the main Cuban Communist Party somehow likes to put on Cuba-related events, good with flags, lots of groups out of respect and not to agitate divisions kept their flags away on the Saturday trying to reach Taksim, but not them, I don't think.
 
I'm back home after an eventful day. This has not calmed down. It's continuing. We will see what tomorrow brings. There was an amazing atmosphere in Taksim square today, most of the time anyway. When I left, people were creating barricades all around the square and thousands were still occupying the park. Loads of people were heading to besiktas which has been the focus of the "action" today. It's reported that police are being even more brutal, but people are better prepared, with masks (I bought my own), goggles and sprays to relieve the burning.
 
Re teargas and anticapitalist Muslims.

The teargas is a particular favourite because the main Turkish producer and importer of the gas bomblets has Ahmet Cicek (AKP loyalist son of former justice minister/current 'speaker of the house') as its vice-president. Every new bill for gas bombs goes straight into his own pockets.
The deeper you look the more you see a vast network of Anatolian capital sustaining the AKP. Because they have an Islamic tinge and do religious gifts for employees and the like - a chief scholar behind the Anti-Kapitalist Muslumanlar (was formerly a priest and early wave Islamist, imprisoned after the 1980 coup etc) calls them religiously cleansed/'abluted' capitalism.
Ablution is what you do as a Muslim before you pray washing dirt off by pouring water over your head, nostrils, arms and legs - many firms and firm owners have taken on this Islamic charity model - giving money specifically for flights to Meccah and the like.
 
allegedly army showing support


My suspicion would be a small number confident of their positions by family connection turning lights on and off.

Bekistas Istanbul has seen a heavy scale tear gas attack people left unconscious from the helicopter dropping. Here are some taken to the improptu medical point in the public courtyard (front of a mosque)


Others in Besiktas have taken over a bulldozer to try and dislodge police who have blocked anyone heading down the hill from their homes to where they are.

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