Gerry Adams exposed , his lies demolished at brothers rape trial

[8den]

Surely when an artificial and arbitrary statlet requires "massive subsidies" it is self-evidently not in "good shape".

Probably but it depends on your yardstick. The current state of affairs is superior to say twenty or thirty years ago.

 

[N_igma]

If you ignore the dominant political and social outlook in Ireland is small "c" conservative.
Head/face palm.

Oh I know exactly the political persuasions of the Irish but you definitely fall into the category of middle class self hating Irishman. Go and complain about everything except the elephant in the room!

 

[8den]

Oh I know exactly the political persuasions of the Irish but you definitely fall into the category of middle class self hating Irishman. Go and complain about everything except the elephant in the room!

V important to pigeon hole and alienate your countrymen. Step 4 in the "building a United Ireland" handbook.

I'm not a "middle class self hating Irishman" (though some small kudos for not using the "west brit" cliche). I'm a realist and a pragmatist. And I'm not stuck moving about in the same delusional tiny pool of "republicanism". Don't believe for a moment that just because you and your mates can blather on about the rights and wrongs of "our struggle" than you represent anything other than a tiny minority here.

"self hating Irishman". LOL At least I dont wander about trying to justify murdering my countrymen for the sake of national unity.

 

[likesfish]

Ireland seems to have suffered from everyone concerned for the last two centurys of making the worst possible decision when given the choice

 

[N_igma]

V important to pigeon hole and alienate your countrymen. Step 4 in the "building a United Ireland" handbook.

I'm not a "middle class self hating Irishman" (though some small kudos for not using the "west brit" cliche). I'm a realist and a pragmatist. And I'm not stuck moving about in the same delusional tiny pool of "republicanism". Don't believe for a moment that just because you and your mates can blather on about the rights and wrongs of "our struggle" than you represent anything other than a tiny minority here.

"self hating Irishman". LOL At least I dont wander about trying to justify murdering my countrymen for the sake of national unity.

Haha you're a laugh mate. Fwiw I come from a well established Republican family in a staunch Republican area and I have my colours nailed to the mast. The 1916 proclamation reserves the right of Irish people to use physical force. I don't agree with it but I certainly won't condemn it.

 

[8den]

Haha you're a laugh mate. Fwiw I come from a well established Republican family in a staunch Republican area and I have my colours nailed to the mast.

Yeah colour me surprised.

The 1916 proclamation reserves the right of Irish people to use physical force. I don't agree with it but I certainly won't condemn it.

Woop de fucking do. So because Pearse et all made a declaration a hundred years ago the Omagh bombing is justified in your mind? Headcase.

 

[likesfish]

But the omargh bomb was the fault of the english securecrats rather than brave irish patriots obviously

 

[j.patterson]

V important to pigeon hole and alienate your countrymen. Step 4 in the "building a United Ireland" handbook.

I'm not a "middle class self hating Irishman" (though some small kudos for not using the "west brit" cliche). I'm a realist and a pragmatist. And I'm not stuck moving about in the same delusional tiny pool of "republicanism". Don't believe for a moment that just because you and your mates can blather on about the rights and wrongs of "our struggle" than you represent anything other than a tiny minority here.

"self hating Irishman". LOL At least I dont wander about trying to justify murdering my countrymen for the sake of national unity.

Jesus christ it's another free stater one happy to celebrate the 1916...men..happy to
do the same for the United irish men...when there government turned there back on there fellow
citizens and now we're gonna be served up a revisionist history of or country's history
....Dublin 5.....

 

[8den]

Jesus christ it's another free stater one happy to celebrate the 1916...men..happy to
do the same for the United irish men...when there government turned there back on there fellow
citizens and now we're gonna be served up a revisionist history of or country's history
....Dublin 5.....

Well that was coherent.

 

[j.patterson]

Well that was coherent.

Oh gosh we have another Dublin er.....In the house...

 

[j.patterson]

Haha you're a laugh mate. Fwiw I come from a well established Republican family in a staunch Republican area and I have my colours nailed to the mast. The 1916 proclamation reserves the right of Irish people to use physical force. I don't agree with it but I certainly won't condemn it.

Is right our kid..the same for my family as yours..This 8den person is laughable...my father always says your own are always the worst...

 

[DaveCinzano]

 

[N_igma]

Woop de fucking do. So because Pearse et all made a declaration a hundred years ago the Omagh bombing is justified in your mind? Headcase.

No only attacks against members of British state forces or loyalist paramilitaries. I condemn all violence against civilians. Obviously the violence used needs to be legitimate as well.

 

[8den]

No only attacks against members of British state forces or loyalist paramilitaries. I condemn all violence against civilians. Obviously the violence used needs to be legitimate as well.

So you'll condemn say the death of Garda Gerry McCabe? Or any other Irish Police Officer? Seeing as the leading cause of Garda deaths since the foundation of the Irish Police Service is the IRA.

Oh and seeing as 21% of all IRA victims were civilians (over 400 odd deaths in the modern campaign) I presume you'll condemn that as well?

Oh yes what did you say "The 1916 proclamation reserves the right of Irish people to use physical force. I don't agree with it but I certainly won't condemn it." You'll condemn all violence against civilians, and you won't condemn the IRA campaign despite the fact that they murdered hundreds of innocent men women and children. The IRA will attack school buses, memorial services, pubs and innocents but hey you seem to think it's okay to be okay with some of their violence but not others.

You. Are. A. Fucking. Joke.

 

[N_igma]

So you'll condemn say the death of Garda Gerry McCabe? Or any other Irish Police Officer? Seeing as the leading cause of Garda deaths since the foundation of the Irish Police Service is the IRA.

Oh and seeing as 21% of all IRA victims were civilians (over 400 odd deaths in the modern campaign) I presume you'll condemn that as well?

Oh yes what did you say "The 1916 proclamation reserves the right of Irish people to use physical force. I don't agree with it but I certainly won't condemn it." You'll condemn all violence against civilians, and you won't condemn the IRA campaign despite the fact that they murdered hundreds of innocent men women and children. The IRA will attack school buses, memorial services, pubs and innocents but hey you seem to think it's okay to be okay with some of their violence but not others.

You. Are. A. Fucking. Joke.

Yes I condemn all murders carried out by the IRA against civilians. What makes you think I would think that was ok? Physical force is a legitimate tactic as long as the targets are legitimate in my eyes. However the conditions aren't right in the current moment for this so I can't say I agree with any random attack on a PSNI cop or whatever it's completely counter productive.

The IRA had about 10,000 people through its ranks during the troubles in many different brigades and ASUs. Sure some did horrific things but killing civilians wasn't a dedicated tactic of the IRA as say it was of loyalist paramilitaries whose civilian death toll must be in the high 90's as a percentage.

 

[miktheword]

8den, don't know your politics (meaning 'where? 'on Left )
I'm sure all those wanting irish self determination recognize not only errors tactically and individually have occurred , as well as atrocities , war is brutal , etc, adjectives I can't think of atm.

22% of IRA killings were civilian?
..over here , most would believe IRA were responsible for nearly ALL civilian deaths - Thatcher said so, all 3,000 plus .

so, fight , with violence as a tactic when advantageous , knowing said atrocities will happen , or live life on your knees ?

or maybe sing 'we shall overcome ' for 30/40/50? years till imperial oppressor becomes enlightened ?

I ask because many 'lefties ' here were so willing to cheer on the ANC, a convenient few thousand miles away ...but never let burning tyres as necklaces stop them
where do you stand ?

 

[likesfish]

The whole armed struggle was an lethal farce.
A low intensity guerrilla conflict is possibly the most useless military stratergy ever.

 

[Pickman's model]

Physical force is a legitimate tactic as long as the targets are legitimate in my eyes.

not sure you are the arbiter of legitimacy of physical force

 

[8den]

Yes I condemn all murders carried out by the IRA against civilians. What makes you think I would think that was ok? Physical force is a legitimate tactic as long as the targets are legitimate in my eyes. However the conditions aren't right in the current moment for this so I can't say I agree with any random attack on a PSNI cop or whatever it's completely counter productive.

So you condemn all IRA actions that kill civilians but don't condemn their campaign. Despite the fact their campaign killed hundreds of civilians.

A Brain Surgeon you ain't.

The IRA had about 10,000 people through its ranks during the troubles in many different brigades and ASUs. Sure some did horrific things but killing civilians wasn't a dedicated tactic of the IRA as say it was of loyalist paramilitaries whose civilian death toll must be in the high 90's as a percentage.

Civilian killings wasnt a dedicated IRA tactic? What about Birmingham? Guilford? Blood Friday? La Mon? Harrods? Enniskillen? Teebane? Warrington? Shankhill Rd? or London Docklands? All bomb attacks on civilian targets.

Fuck off.

PS arguing that the UVF and their ilk killed more civilians than the IRA as a "percentage" is the finest piece of "whataboutery" I've ever heard.

 

[8den]

8den, don't know your politics (meaning 'where? 'on Left )
I'm sure all those wanting irish self determination recognize not only errors tactically and individually have occurred , as well as atrocities , war is brutal , etc, adjectives I can't think of atm.

See for starts we have Irish self determination. I live in a republic.

22% of IRA killings were civilian?
..over here , most would believe IRA were responsible for nearly ALL civilian deaths - Thatcher said so, all 3,000 plus .

I hate to be the one who breaks it to you, but Thatcher was lying.

so, fight , with violence as a tactic when advantageous , knowing said atrocities will happen , or live life on your knees ?

Who is living life on their knees.

or maybe sing 'we shall overcome ' for 30/40/50? years till imperial oppressor becomes enlightened ?

I ask because many 'lefties ' here were so willing to cheer on the ANC, a convenient few thousand miles away ...but never let burning tyres as necklaces stop them
where do you stand ?

Because the ANC's campaign succeeded through non violent means rather than violently overthrowing the Apartheid state.

I don't know who you are but you just countermanded your own argument (and cliche riddled rhetoric about "living life on your knees") by referencing the ANC a organisation who achieved their aims through non violent peaceful protest.

 

[hipipol]

Can the mods rename this thread Bigots Corner please?

 

[Joe Reilly]

The whole armed struggle was an lethal farce.
A low intensity guerrilla conflict is possibly the most useless military stratergy ever.

It isn't of course a military strategy. It's a political one.

 

[likesfish]

It wasnt even a very good poltical one killing soldiers thats what soldiers are paid for the British arnt american killing civillians just pissed the British off.

 

[N_igma]

So you condemn all IRA actions that kill civilians but don't condemn their campaign. Despite the fact their campaign killed hundreds of civilians.

A Brain Surgeon you ain't.

Civilian killings wasnt a dedicated IRA tactic? What about Birmingham? Guilford? Blood Friday? La Mon? Harrods? Enniskillen? Teebane? Warrington? Shankhill Rd? or London Docklands? All bomb attacks on civilian targets.

Fuck off.

PS arguing that the UVF and their ilk killed more civilians than the IRA as a "percentage" is the finest piece of "whataboutery" I've ever heard.

This isn't the church of Scientology here! You can be critical of certain actions by a group you support whilst agreeing with the main thrust of the strategy. I make no qualms in supporting the armed struggle I know it makes your blood boil but to be honest I couldn't give a fuck what you think.

Also you blame me for whatabouttery but the paragraph directly above you say 'what about' and rhyme off a load of Republican attacks to quote your good self You. Are. A. Fucking. Joke

 

[N_igma]

It wasnt even a very good poltical one killing soldiers thats what soldiers are paid for the British arnt american killing civillians just pissed the British off.

So you don't think there's any reason for attacking British soldiers in the framework of an armed struggle against British occupation?

 

[8den]

Also you blame me for whatabouttery but the paragraph directly above you say 'what about' and rhyme off a load of Republican attacks to quote your good self You. Are. A. Fucking. Joke

Are you honestly this dense? You claimed

killing civilians wasn't a dedicated tactic of the IRA

I listed off IRA attacks where civilians were the targets. Pointing out that you're a clueless fucking liar.

So no please explain how attacking Harrods or a pub in Birmingham or the London Docklands, or Bloody Friday, or Enniskillen weren't attacks with the direct aim of murdering civilians.

 

[flypanam]

Have you met the people of Ireland? The majority of them have been electing a conservative center right government into power for 7 decades.

That's true but the big question is why? Would either party be in existence if there was no partition? If labour hadn't stepped aside for Sinn Fein in 1918? Probably not.

 

[8den]

That's true but the big question is why? Would either party be in existence if there was no partition? If labour hadn't stepped aside for Sinn Fein in 1918? Probably not.

I think that ignores the fact that Ireland is in fact a very socially conservative nation. And if FF/FG werent divided over the side they took during the treaty negotiations would still would be electing conservative leaders.

 

[alsoknownas]

Because the ANC's campaign succeeded through non violent means rather than violently overthrowing the Apartheid state.

I don't know who you are but you just countermanded your own argument (and cliche riddled rhetoric about "living life on your knees") by referencing the ANC a organisation who achieved their aims through non violent peaceful protest.

Not the case. The ANC had Umkhonto we Sizwe, it's armed wing, who carried out armed actions against the apartheid state in parallel with the political agitation of the ANC main body. Actions included bombings, land-mine operation, and armed engagements with security forces both in SA and frontline states.
I have to say - anybody who knew anything at all about the struggle against apartheid would know that.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think that ignores the fact that Ireland is in fact a very socially conservative nation. And if FF/FG werent divided over the side they took during the treaty negotiations would still would be electing conservative leaders.

jesus mary and joseph. perhaps you haven't noticed it, but neither ff nor fg are radical socialist parties