German poster campaign launched to find surviving Nazis

[Johnny Canuck3]

, the tightly packed railroad car that emptied out as the dead were thrown overboard while the train moved towards Germany

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/human_rights_quarterly/summary/v018/18.4buergenthal.html


The examples are numerous.

Perhaps it's time to expand your reading?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yep, I'm so doctrinaire that I change my opinion based on new information.
The only thing I'm doctrinaire about is the quality of evidence. You want to know why? It's because more harm has been done to Jews by erroneous stories and facts about the Holocaust being promulgated by either side of the fence, than the far-right have managed to do in the last 70 years. Every time someone makes an error or an exaggeration that can't be reasonably supported by hard evidence, the far-right get another brickbat to chuck at Jews.

How does it harm jews to accept the widely-promulgated fact that dead bodies were thrown from trains going to the camps?

If you're talking about the widespread rape: surely you aren't accusing Professor Saidel of having a hidden fascist agenda?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Condescenscion and name-calling are poor substitutes for argument.

You were prepared to dismiss the idea of rape and genocide being connected.

No, I wasn't and I'm not. What I actually said was "As for your genocide and rape claim, there's a fairly obvious factor that sets the post-WW2 instances apart from WW2. Do you know what it is?" That's not a dismissal, it's a request to you as to whether you're aware of the rather obvious difference between such events in WW2, and those in the post-WW2 world.

I'll ask again: Do you know what the difference is?

You described it as being my idea. It isn't. It's the professor's.

Whose ideas you are promoting.

And the professor appears to have made a much greater study of the War, the Holocaust, and the experiences of women than you have.

The professor has professional resources to do so. I would expect her to have made a "greater study".
None of which changes my repeated point about evidence.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's interesting: men are prepared to accept that soldiers shot naked people in pits, crushed infants underfoot, hung people by their wrists from trees, bayonetted children..... but did they rape any women?

The people committing such atrocities become brutalized as a result of acting with violence, without restraint, toward their fellow humans.

It's no stretch at all to accept that such brutalized individuals were/are also capable of rape.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The professor has professional resources to do so. I would expect her to have made a "greater study".
.

Maybe if she did, she would see the error of her ways, and realize that as always, you, Panda, are correct.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How does it harm jews to accept the widely-promulgated fact that dead bodies were thrown from trains going to the camps?

It's not "widely-promulgated", though. Nothing in Gilbert or Kershaw about it. Nothing in Tooze, who is forensic about the lengths to which the Nazis went to extract "maximum value" from the Jews, even when dead. Nothing in a broad swathe of academic works I've read dealing with the Holocaust.

If you're talking about the widespread rape: surely you aren't accusing Professor Saidel of having a hidden fascist agenda?

The putative widespread rape?
Of course I'm not. I'm saying that errors or exaggerations, even done innocently and founded on the best of motives, have a rebound effect.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's not "widely-promulgated", though. Nothing in Gilbert or Kershaw about it. Nothing in Tooze, who is forensic about the lengths to which the Nazis went to extract "maximum value" from the Jews, even when dead. Nothing in a broad swathe of academic works I've read dealing with the Holocaust..

On the other hand, I have seen it mentioned in books; and as it turns out, there is eyewitness testimony confirming that it happened.

Instead of dismissing it - why not do your own research to see what you come up with.

That's what a true scholar would do.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm saying that errors or exaggerations, even done innocently and founded on the best of motives, have a rebound effect.

Saidel's book is a compilation of testimony from female eyewitnesses.

Exaggerating females, is it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's interesting: men are prepared to accept that soldiers shot naked people in pits, crushed infants underfoot, hung people by their wrists from trees, bayonetted children..... but did they rape any women?

The people committing such atrocities become brutalized as a result of acting with violence, without restraint, toward their fellow humans.

It's no stretch at all to accept that such brutalized individuals were/are also capable of rape.

Are you sure you studied psychology? If you did, you must have slept through anything to do with indoctrination.
It's absolutely the case that the same indoctrination that facilitates the acts of physical violence you mention in your first paragraph could exclude the practice of sexual violence effectively enough that a majority didn't commit such acts. A degree of similar indoctrination is what allows modern troops to function in war without being trailed by rape scandals, or rather, rape scandals involving regular troops are rare enough to be scandals when they occur, rather than just a matter of everyday fact.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Saidel's book is a compilation of testimony from female eyewitnesses.

Exaggerating females, is it?

Oh, well done, now you're implying I'm a sexist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Maybe if she did, she would see the error of her ways, and realize that as always, you, Panda, are correct.

Now you're throwing insults because your sack is empty of anything worthwhile. Same old same old.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The only thing I'm doctrinaire about is the quality of evidence. You want to know why? It's because more harm has been done to Jews by erroneous stories and facts about the Holocaust being promulgated by either side of the fence, than the far-right have managed to do in the last 70 years. Every time someone makes an error or an exaggeration that can't be reasonably supported by hard evidence, the far-right get another brickbat to chuck at Jews.

And isn't this a typical male response to the topic of rape?

If large numbers of jewish women were raped during WW2 - and it certainly looks like that's the case - the ones who bear the shame are..... THE RAPISTS. Not the women. Not the jewish people. They are the victims. They are not guilty.

You're worried about 'brickbats' to be thrown at jews.

Because jewish women were raped? Male thinking aside, rape does not tarnish the female victims.

It tarnishes the rapists.

 

[ViolentPanda]

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/human_rights_quarterly/summary/v018/18.4buergenthal.html


The examples are numerous.

Perhaps it's time to expand your reading?

Perhaps you should have paid more attention to my post earlier where I stated "until early 1945" with reference to rail movements.
That way, your example in this post wouldn't have been the account of someone being transited from Auschwitz (evacuated of the youngest and fittest in the week prior to the Soviet liberation of the complex at the end of January 1945) to Gliwice (Gleiwitz) in early 1945.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And isn't this a typical male response to the topic of rape?

If large numbers of jewish women were raped during WW2 - and it certainly looks like that's the case - the ones who bear the shame are..... THE RAPISTS. Not the women. Not the jewish people. They are the victims. They are not guilty.

You show a poor understanding of the dynamics of guilt and self-blame - the actual weights on the life of an individual who has been sexually-violated.
You see, while you were sounding off about my "typical male response", and how the offenders are guilty and should be ashamed, you entirely ignored the sad reality of who feels the blame and the shame, and against whom society mostly reflects their opprobrium - the victim. The victim, for not resisting, for not being strong enough, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and on and fucking on.

You're worried about 'brickbats' to be thrown at jews.

Because jewish women were raped? Male thinking aside, rape does not tarnish the female victims.

It tarnishes the rapists.

It shouldn't tarnish the victims.
Outwith a perfect world, it always has, and unfortunately probably always will under patriachy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Time for food, so don't take my absence as significant of anything other than a need for a cheese sandwich and some codeine, Johnny.

 

[maya]

You show a poor understanding of the dynamics of guilt and self-blame - the actual weights on the life of an individual who has been sexually-violated.
You see, while you were sounding off about my "typical male response", and how the offenders are guilty and should be ashamed, you entirely ignored the sad reality of who feels the blame and the shame, and against whom society mostly reflects their opprobrium - the victim. The victim, for not resisting, for not being strong enough, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and on and fucking on.



It shouldn't tarnish the victims.
Outwith a perfect world, it always has, and unfortunately probably always will under patriachy.

Spot on. Self-blame, shame, guilt... And- unfortunately- the victim is still the one who gets the blame and the burden of proof/having to defend herself. The power dynamics are totally ****ed. Sad old world.

 

[cyprusclean]

Many Jews had to pay their own train fares to the camps.

After having been forced to formerly declare their personal wealth at the tax department.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's a common - and age-old - occurrence: Men prepared to belittle ignore or suppress women's stories, women's truth, in the protection of...reputation.

In the minds of some men, it's better to suppress truth, than to allow the possibility that reputation-tarnishing 'brickbats' might be formulated.

As a result, men tell women that they are exaggerating; that they are mistaken; that they are hysterical. And now, this male-centric approach has been brought to the study of the history of WW2, and the sexual violence perpetrated against jewish and other women.

One can almost hear the disapproving and disbelieving male researchers: "Are you sure that happened, sweetie?"

In the interests of protecting some larger 'reputation', some men will sacrifice these women's individual reputations, and in some cases their very sanity. For what could be more maddening than having men tell you that the things that happened to you, couldn't have happened?

 

[butchersapron]

And at the end is a hero.

 

[weltweit]

Apparently there are between 4 and 10 Nazi war criminals still at large in the USA. Some of them have had their immigration status revoked by no country wants to take them. Perhaps they will be targets of the Wisenthal centre.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/170431#.UfmeRFFwbwo
http://now.msn.com/nazis-suspected-...-because-no-european-countries-will-have-them

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's a common - and age-old - occurrence: Men prepared to belittle ignore or suppress women's stories, women's truth, in the protection of...reputation.

In the minds of some men, it's better to suppress truth, than to allow the possibility that reputation-tarnishing 'brickbats' might be formulated.

As a result, men tell women that they are exaggerating; that they are mistaken; that they are hysterical. And now, this male-centric approach has been brought to the study of the history of WW2, and the sexual violence perpetrated against jewish and other women.

One can almost hear the disapproving and disbelieving male researchers: "Are you sure that happened, sweetie?"

In the interests of protecting some larger 'reputation', some men will sacrifice these women's individual reputations, and in some cases their very sanity. For what could be more maddening than having men tell you that the things that happened to you, couldn't have happened?

Yes, that's exactly what it's all about, Johnny.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And at the end is a hero.

A fact we should be grateful for. Who else will stand for women, if not the Canuck? Who else is there to guide them as to how their experiences should be read?

 

[frogwoman]

And isn't this a typical male response to the topic of rape?

If large numbers of jewish women were raped during WW2 - and it certainly looks like that's the case - the ones who bear the shame are..... THE RAPISTS. Not the women. Not the jewish people. They are the victims. They are not guilty.

You're worried about 'brickbats' to be thrown at jews.

Because jewish women were raped? Male thinking aside, rape does not tarnish the female victims.

It tarnishes the rapists.

to be honest i can see his point.

i don't think he's being a sexist.

i think the holocaust was worse than the popular accounts of it often say, there seems to be increasing attempts to play down the significance of it in recent years especially in some parts of eastern europe such as lithuania and estonia.

however, there have been quite a significant number of holocaust "memoirs" that have for example turned out to be faked in recent years, like that woman who said that wolves brought her up in the war, and evidence that turned out not to be real etc.

i don't think that vp or anyone is trying to deny those experiences. i'm certainly not. however one of the main angles that nazi/apologist propaganda post 1945 is to say "this is fake, this is fake, see this didn't really happen - see there was no holocaust" so i can understand people wanting to have a high standard of evidence before they believe something about the holocaust. and unfortunately along with the documented evidence there is SUCH a lot of bullshit about the topic, whether its mindless speculation about hitler's sexuality or ethnic origins or people making up shit that happened to them that didn't really happen

of course people did get raped especially in the camps. the higher SS personnel were able to take part in the sexual exploitation of women etc who were only taking part in it to survive. i'm fully prepared to believe that it happened and a lot more than the nazis made out that it did.

at the end of the day tho im not sure why you're arguing about this. it's pretty indisputable what the red army did in europe but we don't say all russians are cunts now because of it, we don't use it as proof of a massive culture of anti-semitism, anti-german hatred (even tho a lot of russian people DO hate germans) and misogyny that's ingrained within the culture. why would we?

i don't blame anyone except the nazis for what happened under nazism and i certainly don't think that the mass of german people should be held responsible for it as goldhagen says they should

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

at the end of the day tho im not sure why you're arguing about this. it's pretty indisputable what the red army did in europe but we don't say all russians are cunts now because of it, we don't use it as proof of a massive culture of anti-semitism, anti-german hatred (even tho a lot of russian people DO hate germans) and misogyny that's ingrained within the culture. why would we?

Arguing about what? I've been attempting to cast a little bit of light on an area that hasn't received a lot of attention: the widespread sexual violence perpetrated against Jewish women and others, by the Germans - and by others.

As for somehow tarring the German population for ever and ever because of these actions - I'm not doing it, nor have I at any point in the thread.

You say it's a well known fact. But the fact remains that many seem to want to ignore or suppress this aspect of history.

The rape and sexual abuse of Jewish women in the Holocaust has been a subject that is so taboo that it has taken 65 years for the first English language book on the subject to make its way to the public.

"One question we get a lot is: 'Why did it take so long?' And, for that you have to understand how it came about," said Rochelle G. Saidel, co-editor with Sonja M. Hedgepeth of "Sexual Violence against Jewish Women during the Holocaust," a multidisciplinary anthology released by Brandeis University Press in December 2010.

In 2006, during a rare seminar about women and the Holocaust at Israel's Yad Vashem memorial, Saidel and Hedgepeth, both accomplished historians, mentioned, in passing, sexual abuse.

Saidel said, "This very illustrious Holocaust scholar raised his hand and said, 'There were no Jewish women who were raped during the Holocaust. How can you say such a thing? Where are the documents? Where is the proof?'"

His voice was not alone. For decades, a myth held sway that the Nazis didn't rape Jewish women because it violated German rules on "race" mixing. Others asserted that Jewish women who were raped must have colluded with the Nazis for food and that women, especially attractive ones, who survived the death camps voluntarily engaged in sexual barter.

Saidel and Hedgepeth knew rape was not documented in the same way as the number of trains that traveled to a concentration camp, but they sought out scholars from seven countries and collected 16 essays, drawing upon oral histories, literature, psychoanalysis, eyewitness reports and diaries.

The stories of rape and sexual abuse began to emerge as if they were old photographic film waiting for the right chemicals, and long-erased pictures of Jewish women who had suffered sexual abuse began to emerge.

http://womensenews.org/story/our-history/110529/holocaust-womens-rape-breaks-decades-taboo

This isn't about you and me and whomever having an internet argument; it's about ensuring that the truth comes out. That's what Professor Saidel is doing.

 

[frogwoman]

fair play to her then.

 

[frogwoman]

has he actually denied that it happened though? I don't think he has frankly.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's for you to read his posts and decide what it is he's doing.

 

[frogwoman]

.

 

[ferrelhadley]

So is everyone guilty by association? If Nazi rocket scientists weren't death camp guards then I see no reason for them to be hunted down.

The discussion has moved on but von Braun was a major in the SS and was absolutely aware of what his workforce was.

(edited to amend rank)

 

[Citizen66]

The discussion has moved on but von Braun was a major in the SS and was absolutely aware of what his workforce was.

(edited to amend rank)

Fair dos. I meant It hypothetically though.