German poster campaign launched to find surviving Nazis

[coley]

So, take me through the epistemological similarities.

Epistemology??

Did you really have to? My brain is now aching.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It was a common occurrence to stop those trains from time to time [some of them were coming a long way], in order to throw off the dead bodies of the old, or very young, who died en route.

I wonder if any local farmers etc ever noticed any of those dead bodies along the tracks?

Load of bollocks. Until early '45 (by which time the major phases of the Final Solution had been carried out) most transiting of people to the death camps was secure - that is, the cattle trucks were sealed for the entire journey from start-point to destination.

Still, if you can provide substantive evidence of this "common occurrence", please do.

 

[Pickman's model]

In Michael Burleigh's book

i wouldn't trust michael burleigh on anything myself. can you find another source?

 

[ViolentPanda]

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photosarchive/en-us/12426_47748.html

Thanks for posting up "evidence" that isn't evidence of your claims at all.

You've posted up evidence of a pogrom in Iasi (Jassy), Romania conducted by the Romanian Iron Guard, police and soldiers after which survivors were placed on a train that was then shunted back and forth along a stretch of line until all the occupants were dead of starvation, thirst or disease.

Nothing to do with Nazi death camps.

You fucking plum.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why do you ruin every single thread about fascism or nazism that you post on with your catch up Google nonsense?

<conspira-nutter>
Because he's paid to?
</conspira-nutter>

 

[ViolentPanda]

Here you go "constructive poster who doesn't go round ALL DAY telling people how wrong they are and thinking that he's actually being constructive"...
I went back a bit further...


And what did I find? What, exactly what I thought I was going to find? A pompus FUCKING CUNT telling everyone how wrong they are.

You're kind of missing an essential point, which is that w/r/t this thread, the person he's having a go at is wrong.

Sorry if that pisses on your BLT, and all that, but people who chat shit tend to get told they're chatting shit. You know that. If you've got some personal beef going on, don't run it across threads just to make yourself feel better, please.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh, is it my yearly assessment, you know, sometimes it's very handy having someone with such a comprehensive filing system around.

basically, BA, I don't like bullies. You are a bully. (and a massive cunt) Out of your 28 posts on this thread, I counted 5 where you were actually helpful. the rest were you telling people how wrong they were, and how stupid they were to be wrong. Fuck you, you fucking bully cunt.

So what do you think you're trying to do, then?

 

[frogwoman]

i wouldn't trust michael burleigh on anything myself. can you find another source?

how come?

 

[Pickman's model]

how come?

his work on terrorism is filled with anti-irish bile

what's wrong with people like martin gilbert or any other reputable historian?

 

[Sprocket.]

his work on terrorism is filled with anti-irish bile

what's wrong with people like martin gilbert or any other reputable historian?

Yeah, like David Irving for instance!

 

[frogwoman]

his work on terrorism is filled with anti-irish bile

what's wrong with people like martin gilbert or any other reputable historian?

I didn't know that!

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn't know that!

people like me read shit like that so you don't have to

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So why are the SWC doing this now?

This was their response a couple of weeks ago to the EU's proposal to impose certain restrictions on goods produced by Israelis in the occupied territories:

Samuels added that, "above all, it encourages the international BDS (Boycott, Divestment Sanctions) movement designed to de-legitimize the State of Israel. These guidelines and other measures singling out the Jewish State are redolent of the 1930's Nazi boycott of the Jews throughout the Reich under the slogan 'Kaufen Nicht bei Juden' (buy not from Jews) which was the prelude to the Holocaust.”

Samuels’ letter said that "were these provisions to have simply designated anonymous 'occupied territories', this might have left the matter open to definition as to whether the target was the Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus or the Chinese in Tibet. These actions are, sadly, unambiguous: 'buy not from the Jewish State', in a continent that should have learned from its history.”

Source

 

[maya]

i wouldn't trust michael burleigh on anything myself. can you find another source?

Can't find anything particularly suspicious on his wiki page (not that I'd trust wikipedia's authority on anything really, but nothing which discredits him as a historian, I mean...)? Is there any reason why his work in general can't be trusted you think, or do you sort of suppose the shoddy quality of one book automatically means his book about a different subject also will be biased? (Know nothing of the man myself, but unless there's massive debates all around the net about the lack of quality of his work, don't you think we could give him the benefit of the doubt? A lot of historians tend to be a bit on the conservative side TBH, unless you read self-proclaimed marxist/leftist historians- but if you read between the lines, perhaps they can at least provide some new information about subjects which aren't covered as much in depth elsewhere- ? Bias is one thing, deliberately or dishonestly distorting facts beyond the pale is another... Where on that scale would you place him? Just d/l'ed froggy's book BTW, will read it anyway and see how it goes)

 

[Pickman's model]

Can't find anything particularly suspicious on his wiki page (not that I'd trust wikipedia's authority on anything really, but nothing which discredits him as a historian, I mean...)? Is there any reason why his work in general can't be trusted you think, or do you sort of suppose the shoddy quality of one book automatically means his book about a different subject also will be biased? (Know nothing of the man myself, but unless there's massive debates all around the net about the lack of quality of his work, don't you think we could give him the benefit of the doubt? A lot of historians tend to be a bit on the conservative side TBH, unless you read self-proclaimed marxist/leftist historians- but if you read between the lines, perhaps they can at least provide some new information about subjects which aren't covered as much in depth elsewhere- ?) Bias is one thing, deliberately or dishonestly distorting facts beyond the pale is another... Where on that scale would you place him? Just d/l'ed froggy's book BTW, will read it anyway and see how it goes)

i'd just call him a worthless cunt and move on. there is nothing he writes on where his contributions can't be put to one side, other historians can take up the slack.

 

[maya]

i'd just call him a worthless cunt and move on. there is nothing he writes on where his contributions can't be put to one side, other historians can take up the slack.

... Ah. Too bad, it's an important subject and I don't think there's that many books written about the topic.

 

[frogwoman]

So why are the SWC doing this now?

This was their response a couple of weeks ago to the EU's proposal to impose certain restrictions on goods produced by Israelis in the occupied territories:

Source

what has this got to do with arresting people involved in the holocaust?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

As for your genocide and rape claim,

It's not my claim: the claim is made by Professor Rochelle G Saidel.

Her biography:

Rochelle G. Saidel, Ph.D., is the founder and executive director of the Remember the Women Institute, a not-for-profit organization based in New York City that carries out and encourages research and cultural projects that integrate women into history. Her own focus is on women during the Holocaust. She is the author or editor of six books on various aspects of the Holocaust. She is co-editor of Sexual Violence against Jewish Women during the Holocaust, part of the Hadassah-Brandeis Institute's series on Jewish women and a National Jewish Book Awards finalist in the Women's Studies category. Her newest book is Mielec, Poland: The Shtetl That Became a Nazi Concentration Camp, partially based on research carried out as a Research Fellow at the International Institute for Holocaust Research at Yad Vashem, Jerusalem. She is the author of The Jewish Women of Ravensbrück Concentration Camp, a National Jewish Book Awards finalist in the Holocaust Studies and Women's Studies categories; and the editor of an expanded edition of the memoir of the sister of former New York City Mayor Fiorello La Guardia, Fiorello's Sister: Gemma La Guardia Gluck's Story. She is also the author of Never Too Late To Remember: The Politics Behind New York City's Holocaust Museum and The Outraged Conscience: Seekers of Justice for Nazi War Criminals in America. She curated an innovative exhibit and authored an accompanying catalog entitled Women of Ravensbrück, Portraits of Courage: Art by Julia Terwilliger for the Florida Holocaust Museum in St. Petersburg, FL. She has written and lectured internationally on the Holocaust for more than thirty-five years, presenting lectures and conference papers throughout the United States, as well as in Brazil, Canada, China, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Mexico, Norway, Poland, Russia, and Sweden, and has contributed chapters to a number of books. She was a National Endowment for the Humanities Summer Seminar Visiting Scholar for a seminar on Cultural Responses to the Holocaust in America and Abroad, Brandeis University, and has been a senior researcher at the Center for the Study of Women and Gender at the University of São Paulo, Brazil, for some twenty years. She received her PhD in Political Science from The Graduate School and University Center, City University of New York. She made Aliyah to Israel in 2001, and currently divides her time among Jerusalem, New York City, and São Paulo.

I know you consider yourself expert on all things relating to World War 2; but with respect, I think I'll go with the Professor as having a greater knowledge than yours on the topic at hand.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

That article doesn't refer to evidence, Johnny, it refers to Ms. Seidel's narrative, which is based on (so far) anecdote, and the extrapolation of incidents into trends.

The book is new to me: I plan to order and read it. You might consider doing the same as well.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Load of bollocks. Until early '45 (by which time the major phases of the Final Solution had been carried out) most transiting of people to the death camps was secure - that is, the cattle trucks were sealed for the entire journey from start-point to destination.

Still, if you can provide substantive evidence of this "common occurrence", please do.

If you read above, I included a quotation from an eyewitness - a woman.

But yet again: not good enough for you.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

the cattle trucks were sealed for the entire journey from start-point to destination.
.

They were also transported in open coal cars.

 

[butchersapron]

The book is new to me: I plan to order and read it. You might consider doing the same as well.

Or use it future beat posters now.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Thanks for posting up "evidence" that isn't evidence of your claims at all.

You've posted up evidence of a pogrom in Iasi (Jassy), Romania conducted by the Romanian Iron Guard, police and soldiers after which survivors were placed on a train that was then shunted back and forth along a stretch of line until all the occupants were dead of starvation, thirst or disease.

Nothing to do with Nazi death camps.

You fucking plum.

Still no mention nor commentary on the eyewitness testimony.

As for name-calling, I'll have to come up with a name for someone who cherry-picks from the commentary of others to respond to -only choosing what appear to be easy targets while ignoring the rest.

Close-minded and doctrinaire come to mind.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's not my claim: the claim is made by Professor Rochelle G Saidel.

Her biography:



I know you consider yourself expert on all things relating to World War 2; but with respect, I think I'll go with the Professor as having a greater knowledge than yours on the topic at hand.

Fuck off. I don't consider myself an expert. It might suit your narrative to try and present me as some kind of condescender to professors, but we both know that's just you being a prick.
The professor is doing what academics do: She's pursuing a line of research. Good luck to her in locating evidence more substantive than anecdote - I hope she finds it, but extant research doesn't indicate that she'll find much evidence beyond anecdote, and while anecdote is acceptable, especially from 1st-hand witnesses, it doesn't have the same probative value as other types of data.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The prisoners are taken to a field, where a train of roofless cattle cars comes to pick them up.

The prisoners are herded into the cattle cars and ordered to throw out the bodies of the dead men. Eliezer’s father, unconscious, is almost mistaken for dead and thrown from the car, but Eliezer succeeds in waking him. The train travels for ten days and nights, and the Jews go unfed, living on snow. As they pass through German towns, some of the locals throw bread into the car in order to enjoy watching the Jews kill each other for the food.

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/night/section7.rhtml

 

[ViolentPanda]

If you read above, I included a quotation from an eyewitness - a woman.

But yet again: not good enough for you.

An eyewitness. A single witness of a single event, and that supports your contention of a "common occurrence"?
You're an idiot.
That's without going into the issue of eyewitness testimony, which as someone who did psych at uni, you should know to be extremely open to unintentional post-event modification.

 

[ViolentPanda]

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/night/section7.rhtml

Hitting the google hard, eh?
Ever thought that the best way to do things is to learn the knowledge first, absorb it, synthesize it, and then deploy it, rather than your chasing around after supporting evidence after you've made a claim?

Probably not, I expect.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Fuck off. I don't consider myself an expert. It might suit your narrative to try and present me as some kind of condescender to professors, but we both know that's just you being a prick.
The professor is doing what academics do: She's pursuing a line of research. Good luck to her in locating evidence more substantive than anecdote - I hope she finds it, but extant research doesn't indicate that she'll find much evidence beyond anecdote, and while anecdote is acceptable, especially from 1st-hand witnesses, it doesn't have the same probative value as other types of data.

Condescenscion and name-calling are poor substitutes for argument.

You were prepared to dismiss the idea of rape and genocide being connected. You described it as being my idea. It isn't. It's the professor's. And the professor appears to have made a much greater study of the War, the Holocaust, and the experiences of women than you have.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Hitting the google hard, eh?
Ever thought that the best way to do things is to learn the knowledge first, absorb it, synthesize it, and then deploy it, rather than your chasing around after supporting evidence after you've made a claim?

Probably not, I expect.

Yes, it's from Google.

And it shows that you are wrong, first the ability to throw bodies from trains [it was definitely possible because people were at times transported in open train cars], and second, about whether it happened.

The quote, once again, is eyewitness testimony.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Still no mention nor commentary on the eyewitness testimony.

As for name-calling, I'll have to come up with a name for someone who cherry-picks from the commentary of others to respond to -only choosing what appear to be easy targets while ignoring the rest.

Close-minded and doctrinaire come to mind.

Yep, I'm so doctrinaire that I change my opinion based on new information.
The only thing I'm doctrinaire about is the quality of evidence. You want to know why? It's because more harm has been done to Jews by erroneous stories and facts about the Holocaust being promulgated by either side of the fence, than the far-right have managed to do in the last 70 years. Every time someone makes an error or an exaggeration that can't be reasonably supported by hard evidence, the far-right get another brickbat to chuck at Jews.