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Geothermal Energy

Aye, idiocy from supposedly numerate people winds me up as well - there's no excuse for it. And it's not hard to research the basics and learn about how things stack up - there's tons of reliable sources of information out there.

My bugbear is when people like that want to replace all the fossil fuel power plants with wind farms - they're not directly comparable for a whole host of reasons but does that stop them? Nope.
 
yep - if a single energy source can't provide all the world's energy requirements by itself, then it must be rejected as being useless.

As an aside, I've just been having a look at some of the latest papers on EROEI of solar PV, and see that the ones predicting lower EROEI figures are continuing to make the same fundamental error of treating solar PV as if it has a 25 year lifespan.

All solar PV panels on the market are guaranteed to be performing at a minimum of 80% of their rated output after 25 years operation, in reality most will be in the 85-90% bracket. So why would anyone who valued their reputation, carry out their calculations as if all systems will be scrapped on the dot of 25 years?

I'd expect the vast majority of solar PV panels to still be operating in 50 years time, and see no reason at all why a lot of them shouldn't still be in use for much longer, albeit at gradually reducing efficiency levels.... ah, I'm getting deja vu here, I think I've already made this point, and now see where people like the OP might be getting their assumptions from on this point. Shoddy work from academics who should know better.
 
I like this critique of Charles Hall's EROI methodology...

Including indirect (off-site) inputs of labor character (e.g. civil servants
and utilities personnel) would, according to the author of this thesis, disqualify the analysis by
Prieto and Hall from being placed in the EROIstnd category. The cost for these services must include
the workers salary (since the income these services generate support the individuals performing the
work at the very least), and hence labor consumption is included. This is not necessarily a problem,
but things should be called what they really are and placing the EROI calculated by Prieto & Hall in
the EROIstnd-category is somewhat confusing.

Pretty much as I'd previously said to Falcon on this point, yes you can attempt to include all these additional externalities, but in doing so you don't come up with anything useful, and it can't be defined as EROEI or be in any way used to compare the figures with conventionally calculated EROEI figures for any other energy sources.

and this conclusion seems about right to me
The author concludes that the EROIPE of photovoltaics, at least using the
system boundaries in this thesis, are “good enough” and does not place overly tight constraints on
economic growth according to the net energy cliff concept.

and that's despite even most of the more favourable calculations for some reason still using the 25 year lifespan period for their calcs. input a more realistic 40-50 year figure and the results would be even more favourable.
 
I seem to remember that everyone quotes the same paper for wave and tidal energy sources, and a few years ago it was reviewed by another academic who said it was out by at least 1-2 orders of magnitude.

Some academic work is incredibly shoddy indeed.
 
there is some very shoddy stuff out there, I suspect part of the problem is that reviewers are just too polite, too afraid that it'll be awkward when they bump into them at a conference etc to really take some of these papers / authors to task.

I also get the impression that academia just isn't very capable of coping with rapidly progressing technology. I know a lot barely change their course material from one year to the next, compared to say my dad, who for 40 years has updated his course material every year to ensure his courses remain up to date.
 
Why does it always have to be either one energy source or another that's going to supply us with all our energy, and that this means the others are all rubbish?


nowt like a load of fact free propaganda, but what do I know, we've only got a couple of MW worth of panels out there, most of which have never been cleaned other than by rain, all bar maybe 0.5% of which continue to perform at or above expectations, that 0.5 are within 5% and the difference was down to error in the shading predictions.

The panels are all guaranteed to still be producing at least 80% of their rated output after 25 years, so they will reduce their efficiency gradually, but will mostly have a useful lifespan of a hell of a lot longer than 25 years - the degradation rate is relatively linear, so most should still be producing at least 60%, probably more like 70% of their rated output after 50 years. No reason at all why well made panels shouldn't have a useful life of a century or more before it really becomes necessary to replace them, albeit that the inverter will have needed replacing 3-4 times in that period. There are certainly panels out there now from the 70s that are still producing around 85% of their rated output.

There are lots of failure modes for PV cells.

http://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/modules/degradation-and-failure-modes

Then lets move on to electromigration. This is inherent in all silicon devices, the higher tolerances and level of manufacture the more prevalent a problem this becomes. That will cost you power.

I find it hard to believe the true cost has been factored in to just 4 year? Just making silicon ingots is extremely energy intensive. Silicon chip grade silicon wafers which are essentially 100% pure crystalline silicon are made by melting high grade silicon in a crucible at precisely 5000 C and putting a seed crystal into the molten silicon and lifting and twisting very slowly. Then there are all the cutting and polishing stages with all the chemicals, each of which cost energy to produce.
(Horrible format but to the point)
http://www.solarindustrymag.com/iss...d_In_Silicon_PV_Cell_Production_A_Primer.html

But this is irrelevant to my original point which was about the lack of use of Geothermal.

What bothers me about the lack of Geothermal. If you drill down 10Km it gets very very hot indeed and that hole will pump out lots of energy. Drill 100's of them and you stand to get a huge whack of power. No high technology silicon panels, not reliant on the sun's 50% or less duty cycle, not reliant on the wind, no inputs of any resources to speak of, no waste material, just basic water wheel type energy harnessing. People are less likely to protest about having a plant near their house too.

Those heat maps of the UK are 1-3Km, but why stop there, its not like there is some magic barrier at 3Km? 10Km holes take about 2 years to drill. They are about as deep as man has drilled but might not have to go that deep. Interestingly go much further than 10Km and its all a bit unpredictable as the Russians found out drilling down 12Km.

Once you have dug theses wells, unless they collapse, they are there for good, producing the most eco friendly power I can see, beyond even hydro, for decades. It appears entirely down to lack of will from where I am standing. People talk about renewable energy sources, but I would call it unending. The Earth is by all accounts , 13,000,000,000 years old. Its still molten at the core, so by all accounts its got some cooling down to be doing yet, I doubt the man of today could touch the power held in the centre of this planet.
 
you're missing a vital point here, namely heat loss and pressure drop, both of which are proportional to the length of the pipe.

If you want to pump fluid along a 10km borehole, so 20km flow and return, that's going to take a significant amount of energy input, although thermosyphoning will hep to some extent. But on the heatloss front, the loss are going to be massive even if it's possible to insulate the pipe to some degree.

It could be that it's possible to get a reasonable net energy benefit from geothermal as deep as you're talking about (I'd have to do some complex calcs to work that out), but it's certainly not the nobrainer you seem to be indicating, and I'd think there's likely to be a good reason why the experts in the field aren't proposing what you're proposing - ie that they've done the calcs and worked out the losses and energy inputs are too high at that depth.

And yes, the calcs for PV take into account the energy needed for crystal formation. It is energy intensive, but then each cell is only a 1-200 microns thick, so one crystal makes a lot of cells.
 
I'll just post this paper here on underground steam pipe lengths and losses, as I've not time to check it out in much detail, but it looks to contain most of the info needed to get an idea on the likely heatloss and pressure loss involved for different diameter pipe.
 
Don't think this is easy in UK. Lardarello in Italy has been generating power for decades and produces 10% of all the world's geothermically generated power.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larderello However the steam is very close to the surface and there are small mud geysers even along the road nearby. Whole area stinks really bad of sulphur. The hot spring waterfall not that far away near Saturnia is well worth a visit in mid winter: http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/d3/9d/6f/le-cascate-a-soli-3-5.jpg
 
I'll just post this paper here on underground steam pipe lengths and losses, as I've not time to check it out in much detail, but it looks to contain most of the info needed to get an idea on the likely heatloss and pressure loss involved for different diameter pipe.

Its not heat I am after is it? I would drill two holes pump water down there, the heat would make it expand and the expansion would drive a turbine, on the basis that you can't compress a solid very much at all. Basic hydraulics.

Lets compare that bit of engineering to the ITER divertor which takes waste helium ash away from the plasma of a fusion reactor.

http://www.iter.org/mach/Divertor

This has taken decades of engineering to work out and the materials science behind it is still experimental. Its protected from the plasma by a massive superconductor created magnetic field, but even then has to withstand 3000 degrees without melting or catching fire. The super conductor generating the magnetic field has to be kept at 4 kelvin, this sits right beside a 150 million degrees Celcius plasma. This incredible feat of engineering has cost a staggering amount of money. Or how about the photovoltaic cell. This is a device that Einstein earned a Nobel prize for physics in the process of understanding how light effect certain materials.

Given the above two examples I think there is very little we can't achieve with geothermal energy if we put our minds to it. Its just drilling deep holes, something we are already pretty decent at doing already.
 
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Southampton, that paragon of geothermal in the UK, is only viable as it uses the steam for heating as well as just plain electricity. In the UK it just doesn't add up to do electricity alone as the steam isn't that hot.
 
Southampton, that paragon of geothermal in the UK, is only viable as it uses the steam for heating as well as just plain electricity. In the UK it just doesn't add up to do electricity alone as the steam isn't that hot.

But give it its due, its been providing both power, hot and chilled water for nearly 25 years, doesn't look like its gonna stop any time soon either.
 
But give it its due, its been providing both power, hot and chilled water for nearly 25 years, doesn't look like its gonna stop any time soon either.
Look, either the world is conspiring against you or you're wrong on the numbers. Geothermal is a very good energy source but it isn't going to make a significant chunk of our energy budget in the UK. Perhaps a lot more than it is now but only as a small supporting feature, mostly around the hot steam in large urban areas to offset heating.
 
Its not heat I am after is it? I would drill two holes pump water down there, the heat would make it expand and the expansion would drive a turbine, on the basis that you can't compress a solid very much at all. Basic hydraulics.

Lets compare that bit of engineering to the ITER divertor which takes waste helium ash away from the plasma of a fusion reactor.

http://www.iter.org/mach/Divertor

This has taken decades of engineering to work out and the materials science behind it is still experimental. Its protected from the plasma by a massive superconductor created magnetic field, but even then has to withstand 3000 degrees without melting or catching fire. The super conductor generating the magnetic field has to be kept at 4 kelvin, this sits right beside a 150 million degrees Celcius plasma. This incredible feat of engineering has cost a staggering amount of money. Or how about the photovoltaic cell. This is a device that Einstein earned a Nobel prize for physics in the process of understanding how light effect certain materials.

Given the above two examples I think there is very little we can't achieve with geothermal energy if we put our minds to it. Its just drilling deep holes, something we are already pretty decent at doing already.
It's not just drilling holes though, is it. Don't you think that if it was just drilling holes it would already have been done?

I'll say it again - in the UK geothermal energy has already been exploited where it it possible to do so.

Also, in other countries they have a lot of shared heating systems in residential blocks. We don't on the whole do this, each flat in a block has it's own heating system.So even supposing you did exploit geothermal energy for district heating purposes, you'd probably have to build new blocks from scratch to exploit the heating, because existing blocks aren't possible to retrofit.
 
It's actually rather reassuring living on a lump of rock that isn't suitable for geothermal energy !
 
The tricky bit is maintaining the energy flow at a decent rate. It might be really hot down there, but if you start extracting energy, you find that what you're really doing is operating a rock cooling machine. Without a distributed network of heat exchangers over a wide area, you end up with diminishing returns as you "suck out" the heat nearest the borehole faster than it can be conducted to it from below.

So you frack it :) Srsly.
 
It's not just drilling holes though, is it. Don't you think that if it was just drilling holes it would already have been done?

I'll say it again - in the UK geothermal energy has already been exploited where it it possible to do so.

Also, in other countries they have a lot of shared heating systems in residential blocks. We don't on the whole do this, each flat in a block has it's own heating system.So even supposing you did exploit geothermal energy for district heating purposes, you'd probably have to build new blocks from scratch to exploit the heating, because existing blocks aren't possible to retrofit.
This report says we have the potential for up to 20% of our electricity generation needs to be met by deep geothermal energy

http://www.r-e-a.net/news/deep-geot...to-20-of-uk-electricity-and-heat-for-millions
 
It is a lot, but is dependent on a higher subsidy level from the UK government, which was held at a recent meeting and will be cut over the next few years making geothermal less likely from an economic viewpoint:
Subsidies for geothermal installations will remain at two certificates until 2015 and then drop by 0.1 of a certificate each year to 2017. But the Renewable Energy Association (REA) said the level of subsidy left the geothermal industry with little prospect for development.
http://www.imeche.org/news/engineering/tidal-power-subsidies-double-while-wind-energy-faces-cuts
 
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