Genius of music?

[killer b]

Surely that would be representative of the lack of opportunities historically for women to be musical geniuses rather than reducing it to a 2022 diverse tastes right on box ticking exercise?

That's one reason, sure. Do you think that explains a tenfold difference? Could we have a conversation about it without it descending into boring accusations of box ticking?

I think there's a whole load of other stuff going on which results in female musicians not being recognised as geniuses as easily as men - probably the same kinds of things that mean most men listen to hardly any music made by women - and I think it's worthwhile to ask people to think about what those things are from time to time.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Delia Derbyshire -

Delia Ann Derbyshire (5 May 1937 – 3 July 2001)[1] was an English musician and composer of electronic music.[2] She carried out pioneering work with the BBC Radiophonic Workshop during the 1960s, including her electronic arrangement of the theme music to the British science-fiction television series Doctor Who.[3][4] She has been referred to as "the unsung heroine of British electronic music",[3] having influenced musicians including Aphex Twin, the Chemical Brothers and Paul Hartnoll of Orbital.[5]

Delia Derbyshire - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

BBC Radio 4 documentary about her: Sculptress of Sound

 

[Magnus McGinty]

That's one reason, sure. Do you think that explains a tenfold difference? Could we have a conversation about it without it descending into boring accusations of box ticking?

I think there's a whole load of other stuff going on which results in female musicians not being recognised as geniuses as easily as men - probably the same kinds of things that mean most men listen to hardly any music made by women - and I think it's worthwhile to ask people to think about what those things are from time to time.

I was thinking of similar in the arts and I'd definitely place Caroline Aherne as a comedy genius and perhaps no. 1 in my top 5. As a writer and performer she was brilliant.
Musically, I mostly like mundane stuff but I said Brian Eno and Philip Glass. Women who are producing experimental stuff like that I definitely want to hear about.

 

[killer b]

I dunno - if you want older artists I reckon Pauline Oliveros, Eliane Radigue, Laurie Anderson, Midori Takada, Laurie Spiegel & Suzanne Ciani all hold their own against those guys. There's loads of women about now making wonderful ambient & experimental stuff too - off the top of my head, try Ulla Straus, Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith (she did an amazing album with Suzanne Ciani a few years ago which is worth your attention), Ellen Arkbro, Laura Cannell, Hannah Peel, Anna Meredith...

Let's be honest though, there is more amazing music made every week than we'll ever get to listen to - but if you don't actually seek out stuff by people who aren't necessarily pushed in front of you by a culture that favours white men, then you'll mostly listen to music made by white men. You actually do need to do a bit of box ticking to break out of that tbh. If you want to. I'd recommend it.

 

[Humberto]

Robert Johnson.

 

[David Clapson]

Angus Young
Kate Bush
Handel
Madonna
Johnny Marr
Jimmy Page
Mory Kanté
Richie Blackmore (sorry)
George Michael

 

[ska invita]

I dunno - if you want older artists I reckon Pauline Oliveros, Eliane Radigue, Laurie Anderson, Midori Takada, Laurie Spiegel & Suzanne Ciani all hold their own against those guys. There's loads of women about now making wonderful ambient & experimental stuff too - off the top of my head, try Ulla Straus, Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith (she did an amazing album with Suzanne Ciani a few years ago which is worth your attention), Ellen Arkbro, Laura Cannell, Hannah Peel, Anna Meredith...

Let's be honest though, there is more amazing music made every week than we'll ever get to listen to - but if you don't actually seek out stuff by people who aren't necessarily pushed in front of you by a culture that favours white men, then you'll mostly listen to music made by white men. You actually do need to do a bit of box ticking to break out of that tbh. If you want to. I'd recommend it.

I don't think making ambient and experimental music makes you a genius, however good it is... Are these people you mention geniuses do you think?

As a rule of thumb I find ambient and experimental music unimpressive on many levels, however interesting it might be to listen to. It's a lot easier to be abstract than it is to make great music within formal rules.

(Alice Coltrane genius)

 

[mojo pixy]

"Genius" in music in this context is just a synonym for "I really like this", there's no objective measure of musical genius and if we really don't want to debase the concept utterly then it can only fit about 1 in 1000 musicians. Not one real genius mentioned yet (well, possibly Mozart) just some fairly popular writers and performers.

Anyway, standards comfortably lowered, as you were.

 

[killer b]

I don't think making ambient and experimental music makes you a genius, however good it is... Are these people you mention geniuses do you think?

As a rule of thumb I find ambient and experimental music unimpressive on many levels, however interesting it might be to listen to. It's a lot easier to be abstract than it is to make great music within formal rules.

(Alice Coltrane genius)

No, but Magnus was just asking for some recs of women working in that area

 

[killer b]

"Genius" in music in this context is just a synonym for "I really like this"

Also this. Most of the people listed in this thread are just dull old Canon artists. It's like a poll in Mojo magazine.

 

[SpookyFrank]

OK who had post #70 for when killer b would tell us that all the musicians we like are obvious and boring?

 

[killer b]

*most

 

[mojo pixy]

OK who had post #70 for when killer b would tell us that all the musicians we like are obvious and boring?

I started that, in fairness, and my point was not that we like boring music, it was that we like some perfectly good music, but 'genius' is something other than 'what we like'

In fact I'd argue that most actual musical genius goes unloved and even unrecognised at its own time, and the crossover between Top 50 of Music and Actual Musical Genius is virtually nil.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

"Genius" in music in this context is just a synonym for "I really like this", there's no objective measure of musical genius and if we really don't want to debase the concept utterly then it can only fit about 1 in 1000 musicians. Not one real genius mentioned yet (well, possibly Mozart) just some fairly popular writers and performers.

Anyway, standards comfortably lowered, as you were.

Well, what makes a genius then in other people's opinion? I laid out some personal criteria earlier. Does the artist need to have been around for 20 years or could you produce one album and be a genius?

For me, it's mainly producing great music over (probably) decades and not just repeating yourself. But I could also take it if someone invented a sound or genre of music, even if they are not prolific.

 

[killer b]

Its the listing of canonical artists I think is a bit dull rather than the artists themselves fwiw - I listen to many of the musicians people have listed this thread all the time.

 

[ska invita]

Tb

Well, what makes a genius then in other people's opinion? I laid out some personal criteria earlier. Does the artist need to have been around for 20 years or could you produce one album and be a genius?

For me, it's mainly producing great music over (probably) decades and not just repeating yourself. But I could also take it if someone invented a sound or genre of music, even if they are not prolific.

Yeah good point, some people have moments of genius but that might only last a year or two.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I think there are also the one-off, no-one else like them artists, even if they produce as much shit as great stuff (which I suppose is easily done if you're an experimenter and prolific).

 

[mojo pixy]

Here are a couple of artists I personally consider touched by genius, fwiw..

Franz Liszt, for pushing the limits of what is physically possible with two hands on a keyboard, and for composing music that 150 years later is still challenging

Sun Ra for making terrible discord and nonsense arrangements not only listenable but memorable, and influencing many artists considered among the greatest ever (not to mention the countless samples...)

Björk Gudmundsdottir for breaking boundaries left right and centre, and making music that is challenging and even difficult, but somehow touches the emotions.

For me an unmistakable mark of 'genius' is not so much how many people love an artist's work but how many people hate it.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Give we're thinking about both women and under-appreciated musical geniuses, I should have mentioned Angela Morley alongside Scott Walker.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I think Bjork is a genius, but she lost me after a few albums and I rarely listen to her through choice these days. There's definitely no-one else like her, in terms of personality as much as music.

 

[mojo pixy]

Yeah, genius touches people and moves on. It doesn't stick around for most people very long.

 

[maomao]

Clarence Reid; successful producer behind numerous classic soul and funk acts; pioneering rap performer, range of styles from soul to punk; two solo careers under different names; widely reviled and died in obscurity. A genius surely.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Here's maybe a controverisal one, as a bit more "recent"... Kieran Hebden. His approach always changes, yet you also somehow always know it's him. He definitely has his own "magic".

 

[ska invita]

I think Bjork is a genius, but she lost me after a few albums and I rarely listen to her through choice these days. There's definitely no-one else like her, in terms of personality as much as music.

I think it's her later stuff that cements the genius bit (medula!l biophillia...the costumes and concepts in the live shows too),.....which as you don't like it ties in a bit with your people hate it comment. But most people don't like most stuff, so not a very good measure

 

[Elpenor]

Ruddy Yurts

 

[Spandex]

"Genius" in music in this context is just a synonym for "I really like this", there's no objective measure of musical genius and if we really don't want to debase the concept utterly then it can only fit about 1 in 1000 musicians. Not one real genius mentioned yet (well, possibly Mozart) just some fairly popular writers and performers.

Anyway, standards comfortably lowered, as you were.

Mozart was the son of a composer/music teacher. He spent his toddler years watching his sister have piano lessons. He composed his first music at 4 or 5 = he came up with a tune and his dad wrote the musical notation down; it's partly a marketing claim to promote his childhood touring the courts of the empire playing for the elite, completely immersed in the world of music. None of that is to downplay his musical achievements - if the concept of musical genius has any meaning, then Mozart was one. But would he have been a musical genius if he had been born to a wood cutter from the Black Forest? Would all the UK/US musicians from the 50s to the 80s listed on this thread have been musical geniuses if they had been born 50 years earlier? Being a genius is about the right person being in the right place at the right time to have the impact they're recognised for. There's probably potential musical geniuses dotted around the world who'll never realise their potential because the opportunity will never arise.

I'm still not clear what the difference between a great musician and a musical genius is and the attempts to define it on this thread haven't quite nailed it yet.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

It's a lot easier to be abstract than it is to make great music within formal rules.

Well, this is bollocks for a start.

 

[rutabowa]

Just did a quick count and we've listed 60 male geniuses, and 6 female - not complaining cause I named a bloke too, but that's pretty stark.

I think maybe the notion of "genius" is inherently misogynistic, or at least very skewed to favour men for most of history.

 

[spanglechick]

Lin Manuel Miranda.

 

[killer b]

I think maybe the notion of "genius" is inherently misogynistic, or at least very skewed to favour men for most of history.

For sure - the things genius is meant to denote - virtuosity, originality, prodigious output over a protracted period - are all things which men are more likely to have the time to concentrate on. You have to wonder if Joni Mitchell would be recognised as a genius if she hadn't given up her daughter for adoption for eg.

But there's also plenty of women who still fulfil that criteria who don't spring so easily to mind as their male counterparts, and that's about us and our biases (including mine - I still massively favour male artists) rather than things that are inherent in the terms we're using.