Gaza under attack yet again.

[nino_savatte]

It's interesting that for all its attempts to link ISIS to Hamas, Israel has more in common with the former especially with regards to its callous disregard for human life.

 

[likesfish]

Hamas arnt exactly above summary executions or delibratly targeting civillians pretty much war crimes?
Not exactly sure how they not escape a visit to the hauge?
Not saying israel dont deserve to visit the hauge just that hamas hardly have clean hands.

Hammas have no reguard for palestenian or israeli lives either they just dont have the firepower

 

[Theisticle]

Heartbreaking:

 

[Theisticle]

 

[coley]

Hamas arnt exactly above summary executions or delibratly targeting civillians pretty much war crimes?
Not exactly sure how they not escape a visit to the hauge?
Not saying israel dont deserve to visit the hauge just that hamas hardly have clean hands.

Hammas have no reguard for palestenian or israeli lives either they just dont have the firepower

It's one thing to loose off pretty ineffective rockets in the general direction of Israel in the hope of doing some damage, it's another to loose off highly effective/destructive munitions directly against a civilian population, in the full knowledge you are going to kill a large number of innocent women and children.

 

[likesfish]

I was talking more of hamas habit of summary execution of Gazans and or storing weapons in or near protected structures and hijackng ambulances giving the idf perfect excuse to blow the fuck out of anything it likes, not that it needed any

 

[RhymnRzn]

It seems to me that israel would take occasion as they see fit, whether hamas was armed or not. if hamas did not twist on an arm of flesh, i am forced to think that, barring an act of God, israel would be probing further out in their desire towards old testament dynastic borders. seeing they are taking the impetus to attack gaza strip with these levels of force, it makes one wonder if hamas were lacing their rockets with some crazy mind-altering air-borne disease, or worse.

I had missed this news item, which predates the 'protective-edge' strife opportunism....

Top Palestinian negotiator rips into ‘discredited, useless’ Abbas

In leaked recording, Saeb Erekat compares PA president to Saddam and Assad; says Netanyahu ‘a war criminal’ who’s ‘not worth a bullet'

The source and time of Erekat’s speech were not reported, but in the edited three-minute recording, uploaded to YouTube late Wednesday night by the Awraq News Agency, the Palestinian official accused his president of acting autocratically against the will of a majority of the Palestinian leadership, which voted for a harsher stance against Israel.

“Netanyahu isn’t giving them [the Palestinians] anything. He said that Jerusalem is Israel’s capital, and they have Hebron. This is the man who wants to make peace with us,” Erekat said sardonically.

“No offense, but Abbas is mistaken too,” Erekat continued, reprising a dialogue he conducted with the president.

“Abu Mazen [Abbas], if you want to move Netanyahu, work on the [application] documents for international institutions. He said: I made a commitment’ [not to apply to international institutions]. What commitment have you made? This isn’t your daddy’s farm! This is a nation, this is Palestine. This is bigger than individuals. He didn’t listen to me. I swear, I submitted my resignation twice.”

In his comments, Erekat said there could be no hope of reaching a negotiated solution with Netanyahu. The only way to force the Israeli premier to make concessions is by branding him a war criminal in international courts, he said.
“Without a cane to his ass [Netanyahu won't act]. I don’t say shoot him. He isn’t worth the bullet … he’s ideologically corrupt, I’ve known him for 31 years.”

‘Quite honestly, the Arabs don’t believe you [Abbas],’ Erekat said. ‘They either doubt you, or attack you, or are scared of you.’

“Why did Netanyahu engage in these random negotiations if not to build more settlements? … You, Abu Mazen, have the ability to prevent Netanyahu from traveling anywhere in the world, except from Ben-Gurion airport to New York. He’s a despicable, filthy war criminal. Let him take [the land] from the river to the sea. Did he leave you a [Palestinian] Authority anyway? When you [Abbas] travel from Ramallah to Amman you have to call a lieutenant [at the IDF coordination office] in Beit El and tell him how many cars are traveling with you. They humiliate you.”

Looks like israel is getting everything they want: settlements, hamas' and fatahs' holding on for dear life, military industrial bonanza, adversaries divided against themselves....upon that, what more could they possibly wish for???

 

[coley]

I was talking more of hamas habit of summary execution of Gazans and or storing weapons in or near protected structures and hijackng ambulances giving the idf perfect excuse to blow the fuck out of anything it likes, not that it needed any

Try reading up on what is actually going on there, you sound like me, two or three years ago.

 

[coley]

Can't help wondering where all these disaster relief organisations are? You know,the ones who turn up after a hurricane or an earthquake, I think the Gazans would qualify?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

.

 

[DotCommunist]

Can't help wondering where all these disaster relief organisations are? You know,the ones who turn up after a hurricane or an earthquake, I think the Gazans would qualify?

last time an international aid convoy tried to break the blockade the idf sunk it

 

[likesfish]

You cant really do disaster relief if your going to become a target can you?
Unrwa take casualties have their depots bombed and they are the UN.
Even if you got past the blocades airstrikes tanks and gunboats
You then have the problem that security is non exsistant you do what hamas says ( making whatever you are trying to do a target for the israelis so defeating the object) or you run into one of the even more radical groups

 

[Knotted]

In the biggest blow to Israeli propaganda, which claimed that Hamas broke the ceasefire, former Israeli Attorney General Michael Ben Yair has said that "it was Israel who staged the alleged Hamas breach of the ceasefire in order to create the conditions for assassinating Muhammad Al-Daif, Commander-in-Chief of Hamas's military wing, Al-Qassam Brigades.

Former Israeli AG: Our government staged the assassination of Al-Daif
I haven't read the Ha'aretz article as its behind a paywall.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was talking more of hamas habit of summary execution of Gazans and or storing weapons in or near protected structures and hijackng ambulances giving the idf perfect excuse to blow the fuck out of anything it likes, not that it needed any

Unfortunately, where infiltrators/collaborators are concerned, HAMAS have 2 choices:
1) Let the civil authorities (some of whom are collaborators themselves) deal with the matter, which means at least even odds that the collaborator gets to walk away, and perhaps move to the opposite end of the Strip or to the West Bank and start again, or
2) Execute them, with the attendant risk of occasionally executing an innocent.

Frankly, I think that given those options, HAMAS feel that they have Hobsons' Choice with regard to dealing with security threats.

 

[nino_savatte]

I was talking more of hamas habit of summary execution of Gazans and or storing weapons in or near protected structures and hijackng ambulances giving the idf perfect excuse to blow the fuck out of anything it likes, not that it needed any

The Lehi also executed those it believed to be collaborators. For Israel to use these executions to bolster their propaganda efforts is frankly ludicrous.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Unfortunately, where infiltrators/collaborators are concerned, HAMAS have 2 choices:
1) Let the civil authorities (some of whom are collaborators themselves) deal with the matter, which means at least even odds that the collaborator gets to walk away, and perhaps move to the opposite end of the Strip or to the West Bank and start again, or
2) Execute them, with the attendant risk of occasionally executing an innocent.

Frankly, I think that given those options, HAMAS feel that they have Hobsons' Choice with regard to dealing with security threats.

How are you defining 'collaborators' here? Hamas was in the past happy to accept Israeli state patronage after all.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How are you defining 'collaborators' here?

Those who work with the occupying forces to the detriment of their fellow Gazans.

Hamas was in the past happy to accept Israeli state patronage after all.

And because of their past (and we are, as reflected in the historical record, talking about a time when HAMAS were not undertaking armed resistance, but were effectively acting as providers of social services), we should be suspicious of their motives now, or tax them about hypocrisy?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Those who work with the occupying forces to the detriment of their fellow Gazans.



And because of their past (and we are, as reflected in the historical record, talking about a time when HAMAS were not undertaking armed resistance, but were effectively acting as providers of social services), we should be suspicious of their motives now, or tax them about hypocrisy?

Yes, because of how and why Hamas developed, as a reactionary religious force which enjoyed some support from the Israeli state and played a role in dislodging the previous secular Palestinian leadership, we should be suspicious of them. Very suspicious. I didn't say anything about hypocrisy, you're referring to others comments there.

 

[uk benzo]

Yes, because of how and why Hamas developed, as a reactionary religious force which enjoyed some support from the Israeli state and played a role in dislodging the previous secular Palestinian leadership, we should be suspicious of them. Very suspicious. I didn't say anything about hypocrisy, you're referring to others comments there.

Lots of sons have been disowned by their fathers. AQ was a product of the US, that does not mean they have American 'values'.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Lots of sons have been disowned by their fathers. AQ was a product of the US, that does not mean they have American 'values'.

No, of course it doesn't, but the example of Al-Qaeda shows like most other historical examples do that US imperialism prefers funding sectarian religious and ethnic forces to class based secular movements. There is a reason for that, and there is a reason for the preference of Hamas to secular forces; Hamas are opposed to the kind of mass-based resistance which could actually achieve something for the Palestinians.

 

[uk benzo]

No, of course it doesn't, but the example of Al-Qaeda shows like most other historical examples do that US imperialism prefers funding sectarian religious and ethnic forces to class based secular movements. There is a reason for that, and there is a reason for the preference of Hamas to secular forces; Hamas are opposed to the kind of mass-based resistance which could actually achieve something for the Palestinians.

You underestimate the power of religion. Most empires led through religion. It is more of a potent unifying force than any social led power. Communism lasted only 100 years. Ottoman 600.

For this reason, I believe that Hamas has got the Palestinian backing in the Ghazza strip. And as much as you may not like it, they did win popular vote democratically.

 

[SpackleFrog]

You underestimate the power of religion. Most empires led through religion. It is more of a potent unifying force than any social led power. Communism lasted only 100 years. Ottoman 600.

Do you think we should abandon class based secular organisations in the UK then, in favour of infinitely more powerful religious orgs?

For this reason, I believe that Hamas has got the Palestinian backing in the Ghazza strip. And as much as you may not like it, they did win popular vote democratically.

Hamas has the backing in comparison to who? Fatah? The Israeli state? What has the election got to do with it?

 

[agricola]

You underestimate the power of religion. Most empires led through religion. It is more of a potent unifying force than any social led power. Communism lasted only 100 years. Ottoman 600.

For this reason, I believe that Hamas has got the Palestinian backing in the Ghazza strip. And as much as you may not like it, they did win popular vote democratically.

TBH there are not that many empires that led "through religion", though the initial Muslim expansion up to the 11th century is perhaps a rare example of that happening.

 

[uk benzo]

Do you think we should abandon class based secular organisations in the UK then, in favour of infinitely more powerful religious orgs?



Hamas has the backing in comparison to who? Fatah? The Israeli state? What has the election got to do with it?

Did I say that it should be abandoned?? You have facepalm privilege once you re-read my message and tell me where I said that secular organisations should be abandoned.


And I quote your earlier message: "Hamas are opposed to the kind of mass-based resistance which could actually achieve something for the Palestinians". Then you say "Hamas has the backing in comparison to who? Fatah? The Israeli state? What has the election got to do with it?". Their election result is part of their mass-based resistance.

 

[uk benzo]

TBH there are not that many empires that led "through religion", though the initial Muslim expansion up to the 11th century is perhaps a rare example of that happening.

We have empires led by religion (Muslim and Christian- what were the crusades?), wars driven by religion, battles in the name of religion.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Did I say that it should be abandoned?? You have facepalm privilege once you re-read my message and tell me where I said that secular organisations should be abandoned.

You said, in response to my criticisms of Hamas and clear position of supporting secular class based mass opposition, that religion was the most potent unifying force, and you said it in the context of defending Hamas against my criticisms. The logical conclusion would be that you argue for religious organisation in contrast to secular class based organisation, no? Am I being unfair or did you just express yourself poorly?

Their election result is part of their mass-based resistance.

There's a statement. How exactly is the election result evidence of mass resistance?

Hamas utilise guerrilla tactics in direct contrast to the tactics of mass-based resistance. Are you disputing this?

 

[SpackleFrog]

We have empires led by religion (Muslim and Christian- what were the crusades?), wars driven by religion, battles in the name of religion.

No. We have had battles in the name of religion; we have had no wars driven by religion. There is a huge difference.

 

[DotCommunist]

the wars of the reformation, french huegenot expulsions, william of orange invading england etc

 

[DotCommunist]

although its fair to say that temporal matters were tied up with those too, but religion was a strong factor.

 

[SpackleFrog]

the wars of the reformation, french huegenot expulsions, william of orange invading england etc

You're saying these were driven by religion as opposed to events in which religion was invoked?