G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[Barking_Mad]

...

Ryder is still questioning Patel. The barrister has established that there are two types of heart attack:

1) An embolism or thrombus (the result of a full blockage of the system).
2) An arrythmic heart attack (an irregular heartbeat, which results in a heart attack).

Patel concluded that Tomlinson died of the second (arrythmic) heart attack.

The pathologist said that the information he was given was that information he was given was that the heartbeat was irregular.

This information came from his reading of the electrical activity in the heart, as measured by paramedics who arrived on the scene and used a defribrillator. However, the paramedics, in their evidence,
said the heartbeat shown on the screen was normal.

Ryder said he believed this inconsistency has "solved the mystery". He drew his attention to the evidence of one paramedic who said Tomlinson had a regular heartbeat.

Ryder: What she told us was the rhythm that was showing on the screen looked like a normal rhythm.
Patel: It didn't look like a normal rhythm to me.

 

[revlon]

interesting, this has ben added to the guardian article:

The high court concluded: "In the result, the claimants succeed in establishing that (a) the containment of the climate camp, and (b) the pushing operation to move the crowd 30 metres to the north at the southern end of the climate camp were not lawful police operations."

If anything this goes some way to get rid of the ridiculous ruling by the high courts for mayday 2001 - which the police have used as the legal basis for kettling.

Good work.

Edited: just reading the court ruling and it states "This Royal Exchange containment [Bank of England kettle] is not criticised in these proceedings as unlawful". So, not as challenging as it could be. Obviously degrees of violence (real and expected) are now going to be a major consideration

 

[Barking_Mad]

...

Patel is now looking in detail at the chart evidence showing Tomlinson's heart activity shortly after he collapsed.

To recap, paramedics did not see an abnormal or chaotic rhythm (picture the zigzag lines you see on beeping heartbeat computer screens – officially it is called an ECG, or electrico-cardio gram).

Patel maintains the charts show "chaotic rhythm", but concedes he is "not an expert" and suggests someone else would be in a better position to read the data.

Ryder: Dr Patel, I am afraid I am going to be critical here - I am going to suggest to you are clinging to your original conclusion when you have evidence that shows your original conclusion might be wrong. That is what I am suggesting you are doing right now."
Patel: Right. No, I wouldn't do that, I don't think I am doing that.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Well if punching and slapping people is illegal, then Hawrood certainly broke the law.

 

[OneStrike]

If there has to be a clear and imminent risk of violence won't the police just continue to invent or instigate trouble. Did anyone find out the truth about those 'lightbulbs filled with sulphur' being thrown at police at the start of the splinter march towards Oxford Street?

Its still great to see the police proven in court to have been those outside of the law.

 

[winjer]

If anything this goes some way to get rid of the ridiculous ruling by the high courts for mayday 2001 - which the police have used as the legal basis for kettling.

Far from it, this judgment approves the Mayday judgment, and questions no part of it.

 

[laptop]

If it's whenever they feel like saying it with no comebacks even if it's obvious bullshit, then the situation hasn't really changed much as a result ...

They'll probably proceed roughly on that basis until the case from Mayday 01 finally gets heard at the European Court of Human Rights...

Not listed before July as Austin -v- UK at http://www.echr.coe.int/ECHR/EN/Header/Pending+Cases/Pending+cases/Calendar+of+scheduled+hearings/

 

[revlon]

Far from it, this judgment approves the Mayday judgment, and questions no part of it.

which is why i edited the post after reading the court ruling.

 

[Barking_Mad]

2nd Pathologist is ripping Patel a new one over the way he submitted evidence, 'discarded evidence' and wrote up his findings.

 

[The Black Hand]

Looks *awfully* like it though ...

'Constable Savage' appears to have plenty of time to see that he's about to smash the guy's head against the edge of that door

What's particularly telling for me is that there's no reaction at all from either him or the other officer along the lines of 'oops, we smashed that poor guy's head against a door, is he ok?'

If it was in any way an accident, you'd expect them to react accordingly.

They're acting like they didn't notice anything whatsoever happened there, which given that they can't have failed to notice, suggests to me that the intention was to do it discreetly.

Very true I fink.

 

[toblerone3]

And everyone has forgotten the cause behind this demo. This is a personal tragedy possibly facilitated by a bit of rough policing.

The bigger tragedy is that the demonstrators failed so badly to harness real public anger at the behaviour of bankers, the banking system and the political establishment's responses.

We are not going to learn anything we didn't know about the police from all of this. They are not going to learn much from it either.

 

[toblerone3]

And everyone.....

 

[winjer]

BBC story[/URL] on Swift findings being withheld:

Swift's PM findings have apparently been disclosed in the last fortnight, both Patel and Cary have mentioned seeing it only recently.

 

[Balbi]

Is it me or should Patel not be allowed near dead bodies until he's one himself?

 

[Kaka Tim]

Patel is being ruthlessly exposed as a police stooge and an incompetent one at that.

The pattern of cover-up, deciept and corruption that follows every killing by police is plain to see.

Wether the inquest sees in that light is another matter - but at the very least it should conclude that PC Savage was on a violent rampage, that his collegues and superiors aquiessed in his behaviour, that his assualt led directly to the death of Ian Tomlinson (and should face a manslaughter charge - but dont hold your breath), that he and the Met lied about it afterwards and that Patel is uterrly incompetent and was pressured into making a cop favourable verdict.

 

[winjer]

Patel just came up with a new possible cause of death: "hypoxia mixed with acidosis."

He's terribly confused by all the big words.

 

[Barking_Mad]

is Patel feeling better? He had to leave the stand because of illness on Friday.

 

[winjer]

Yes, whatever condition he has was alleviated by resting over the weekend.

 

[Balbi]

Yes, whatever condition he has was alleviated by resting over the weekend.

Lack of quick witted imagination.

 

[winjer]

Patel is being ruthlessly exposed as a police stooge and an incompetent one at that.

Not at all. Patel is nowhere near clever enough to be a police stooge, he's just useless and unwilling to admit when he's wrong. Yesterday he invented a new cause of death, and then explained how all the things he thought showed a heart attack didn't happen, but that didn't matter because the things that did happen still meant the cause of death was a heart attack (unless it was hypoxia).

On the basis of the liver and heart specialist evidence heard yesterday the villain here is definitely the DPP/CPS, who either knew they should charge, or failed to find out that they could.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Patel bent over backwardds to give a cop-favourable verdict - and has told the inquest that he was essentailly instructed to do just that. He's was the met's pet pathologist - thats why they got him to do the post mortem.

 

[winjer]

Patel bent over backwardds to give a cop-favourable verdict - and has told the inquest that he was essentailly instructed to do just that. He's was the met's pet pathologist - thats why they got him to do the post mortem.

He did not, he has not claimed to be so instructed. And he was not chosen to do the post mortem, it was by default. This has all been detailed at the inquest, I suggest you look at the transcripts.

 

[laptop]

He did not, he has not claimed to be so instructed. And he was not chosen to do the post mortem, it was by default. This has all been detailed at the inquest, I suggest you look at the transcripts.

Aye. I'm waiting for the explanation of how "can you please rule out..." really means "can you scrupulously investigate the possibility of..."

That was duly, if weakly, provided. Very weakly.

 

[Corax]

Maybe not "instructed".

"Guided" certainly.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Several officers were at the post mortem and Patels has stated that they asked him to rule out injuries that would suggest him being assaulted by a copper. Patel duly obliged, dismissing clear indications of a dog bite and a baton strike as a reuslt of 'falling on bits of broken glass' - this would be laughagle if it wasn't so fucking tragic. Thats not just incompetance - its corruption.

And Patel has form for this sort of shit - he was already notroiuous for previous cop helpful verdicts (dodgey eveidnce that painted the victim in a bad light IIRC) . Wether it was 'chance' that he happened to the Pathologist on the day I remain to be convinced by - Im sure the met have ways of ensuring the 'correct' pathologist is there for 'sensitive' cases.

 

[winjer]

Several officers were at the post mortem and Patels has stated that they asked him to rule out injuries that would suggest him being assaulted by a copper.

No he didn't. Read the transcripts.

Patel duly obliged, dismissing clear indications of a dog bite and a baton strike as a reuslt of 'falling on bits of broken glass' - this would be laughagle if it wasn't so fucking tragic. Thats not just incompetance - its corruption.

He didn't dismiss the baton strike, and he said more tests would be needed to confirm a dog bite, as did Dr Cary. Read the transcripts.

And Patel has form for this sort of shit - he was already notroiuous for previous cop helpful verdicts (dodgey eveidnce that painted the victim in a bad light IIRC).

Not a cop friendly verdict, just inappropriate comments, Patel found the cause of death to be bradycardia and the inquest returned a verdict of unlawful killing, later overturned for reasons unrelated to Patel.

 

[winjer]

That was duly, if weakly, provided. Very weakly.

As was pointed out by Dr Cary, none of the comments about police officers at the post mortem appeared in Patel's original report.

 

[winjer]

The inquest isn't sitting today, and will hear the last of the evidence tomorrow, next Tuesday is reserved for legal submissions about the summing up and possible verdicts.

The summing up will be next Thursday, and the jury is then expected to deliver a verdict in the first week of May.

 

[winjer]

There were three post mortems: Patel, then Cary, then Shorrock (acting for the Met) and Swift (for Harwood). Shorrock agreed with Cary's findings.

Swift agreed with Cary too, it was agreed by the various lawyers that there no need for the jury to hear a word he wrote as he came to the same conclusions for the same reasons as Cary.

 

[ymu]

Swift agreed with Cary too, it was agreed by the various lawyers that there no need for the jury to hear a word he wrote as he came to the same conclusions for the same reasons as Cary.

Isn't that a bit odd? Swift was appointed by Harwood's team. Shouldn't the jury know that all the non-discredited pathologists on both 'sides' agree with each other?