Fully Automated Luxury Communism by Aaron Bastani – a manifesto for the future

[editor]

I made one post pointing out your hypocrisy. You're bang to rights, so you bow out with an ad hominem of your own.

<can't be arsed>

 

[editor]

But nothing original.

Does every post here have to be totally original? If you're finding it too dull and cliched for you, others may find something of interest. Ot we could just follow Orang Utan's lead and make it all personal and bitchy.

 

[Orang Utan]

Oh just fuck off. Stop being a twat.

You're behaving the way you're accusing me of behaving. If i did the same to you, i could get banned.
You cheerled a capitalist on one thread for brushing a few more crumbs off the table into the workers' mouths and then criticised another person on this thread for being under the thumb of capitalism. I pointed out this egregious hypocrisy rather politely, which you characterised as an ad hominem attack, whilst accusing me of tedious point scoring. Oh the ironing

 

[Orang Utan]

Does every post here have to be totally original? If you're finding it too dull and cliched for you, others may find something of interest. Ot we could just follow Orang Utan's lead and make it all personal and bitchy.

No, YOU made it personal by calling me tedious and telling me to fuck off. I merely posted a link and one word

 

[editor]

You're behaving the way you're accusing me of behaving. If i did the same to you, i could get banned.
You cheerled a capitalist on one thread for brushing a few more crumbs off the table into the workers' mouths and then criticised another person on this thread for being under the thumb of capitalism. I pointed out this egregious hypocrisy rather politely, which you characterised as an ad hominem attack, whilst accusing me of tedious point scoring. Oh the ironing

If you don't want to talk about the topic of this thread, please keep your shitty attacks to yourself

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

 

[Orang Utan]

If you don't want to talk about the topic of this thread, please keep your shitty attacks to yourself

Quite, so please stop it, or you will have to ban yourself

 

[Flavour]

'Fake meat' is certainly turning into a multi-billion industry. I reckon there'll be a point in the future when people look back and go, "What? They drank the stuff that came from a cow's nipples?! Eeeeurgh""

A multi-billion industry. Right. Think about that. It represents a further concentration of wealth in the hands of technology companies and their shareholders. It means cutting ourselves off from the planet. It is anti-ecological. It is reprehensible human arrogance, to satisfy our own wants at all costs. The only reason this is getting big is because of the well-known impact the raising of real meat has on the environment. Solution? Create "fake" meat (I assume that's what we're talking about here, lab-grown meat, as opposed to vegetable substitutes)... because that's okay isn't it? Do away with their organs, lives, "animality", and reduce them to their lab-grown flesh for our consumption. It's horrific.

What it represents for me is a further retreat away from contact with nature and an invitation for CAPITALISTS (not FALC fantasist collectives) to be responsible for our food supply. Forget about your local farmers. Consign them to the dustbin of history. "Science" will provide all the food. But who owns that science? Who owns that future?

That's precisely the problem with this FALC shit. These things could all come about, the asteroid mining and the synthetic meat and all the other wanky sci-fi fantasy shit they love. They probably will come about, sooner or later. But they won't be communist. They won't be collectively owned. They will be within a system of oppression.

Synthetic meat is voluntarily putting yet another middle man between you and the food you eat. I believe the less middle men there are between me and ANYTHING I consume, the better it is, because I contribute less to corporate profits.

 

[likesfish]

It's at least optimistic being a vegan and living in a yurt really isn't going to appeal

 

[editor]

A multi-billion industry. Right. Think about that. It represents a further concentration of wealth in the hands of technology companies and their shareholders. It means cutting ourselves off from the planet. It is anti-ecological. It is reprehensible human arrogance, to satisfy our own wants at all costs. The only reason this is getting big is because of the well-known impact the raising of real meat has on the environment. Solution? Create "fake" meat (I assume that's what we're talking about here, lab-grown meat, as opposed to vegetable substitutes)... because that's okay isn't it? Do away with their organs, lives, "animality", and reduce them to their lab-grown flesh for our consumption. It's horrific.

What it represents for me is a further retreat away from contact with nature and an invitation for CAPITALISTS (not FALC fantasist collectives) to be responsible for our food supply. Forget about your local farmers. Consign them to the dustbin of history. "Science" will provide all the food. But who owns that science? Who owns that future?

That's precisely the problem with this FALC shit. These things could all come about, the asteroid mining and the synthetic meat and all the other wanky sci-fi fantasy shit they love. They probably will come about, sooner or later. But they won't be communist. They won't be collectively owned. They will be within a system of oppression.

Synthetic meat is voluntarily putting yet another middle man between you and the food you eat. I believe the less middle men there are between me and ANYTHING I consume, the better it is, because I contribute less to corporate profits.

'Fake meat' is a damn sight better for the environment and the future of this planet than continuing to eat meat in every increasing quantities. I can't say I like the idea of 'synthetic' meat, if that means it's got some sort of animal source/genes/whatever in there.

Synthetic meat is voluntarily putting yet another middle man between you and the food you eat. I believe the less middle men there are between me and ANYTHING I consume, the better it is, because I contribute less to corporate profits.

I'm all for that but how's that going to work if you live in a mega city? How are you going to get your food direct from the farmer?

 

[LDC]

I haven't read the book (but will) but suspect his premise is partly on the fully automated and luxury bit, but importantly in the context of how that might facilitate communism, so people going on about it just being great for capitalists is somewhat missing the point I think, especially when there's some really good critiques of the positions related to FALC generally.

 

[Flavour]

'Fake meat' is a damn sight better for the environment and the future of this planet than continuing to eat meat in every increasing quantities. I can't say I like the idea of 'synthetic' meat, if that means it's got some sort of animal source/genes/whatever in there.

Like I said there's a distinction between vegetable substitutes and lab-grown meat. And I agree we cannot afford to continue eating meat the way we do. We need to eat much, much, much less of it. But nor do I support the total abandonment of 10000 years of history and culture associated with raising animals. It's not just farmers jobs at risk (replaced by lab technicians) in a future of synthetic meat, it's thousands of years of culture and traditional knowledge which once gone, is hard to get back.

I'm all for that but how's that going to work if you live in a mega city? How are you going to get your food direct from the farmer?

There are lots of farmers markets in London.

 

[belboid]

Haven’t got onto the political economy part (which I’m presuming covers ‘how do we get there’), but Gareth Dale rips the science apart in his the Ecologist review

Climate, communism and the Age of Affluence?

 

[Flavour]

Haven’t got onto the political economy part (which I’m presuming covers ‘how do we get there’), but Gareth Dale rips the science apart in his the Ecologist review

Climate, communism and the Age of Affluence?

From the link:
"With a steady patter of quotes from CEOs, the tone is often less manifesto than marketing brochure for SpaceX and other “disruptive” corporations."

In line with what I said earlier. This isn't communist in the slightest.

 

[editor]

Like I said there's a distinction between vegetable substitutes and lab-grown meat. And I agree we cannot afford to continue eating meat the way we do. We need to eat much, much, much less of it. But nor do I support the total abandonment of 10000 years of history and culture associated with raising animals. It's not just farmers jobs at risk (replaced by lab technicians) in a future of synthetic meat, it's thousands of years of culture and traditional knowledge which once gone, is hard to get back.



There are lots of farmers markets in London.

Yes there are, but you'll find they're not terrible convenient for an awful lot of people and they can be devilishly expensive.

I really don't care much about losing the 'culture' of animals being reared in unnatural and cruel environments and slaughtered in their billions.

 

[Flavour]

Yes there are, but you'll find they're not terrible convenient for an awful lot of people and they can be devilishly expensive.

I really don't care much about losing the 'culture' of animals being reared in unnatural and cruel environments and slaughtered in their billions.

Meat being cheap is precisely the problem. That's why everyone eats so much of it. Next you'll say "so only the rich can eat meat then?" and I'll say "No, of course thats not what I'm suggesting, the fact of massive wealth inequality doesn't sit well with me either. But that doesn't mean meat should be cheap today, so poorer people can "feel rich" by eating cheap, industrially raised beef. It's bullshit aspirational stuff.

Actually, you should care about losing the culture of animal husbandry, because it's integral to the rise of modern humans and it doesn't HAVE TO necessitate the cruel industrial slaughter of billions of animals in sheds. I'm against industrial meat in all its form. I don't buy meat from supermarkets. Ever. You don't know where that shit came from. I'm lucky because I don't live in London and have access to farmers who raise a small number of animals in good conditions. I have no moral problem eating that meat.

The distinction between small-scale farmers and industrial meat production is absolutely essential to this analysis and one that is so easily overlooked by urban dwellers (excuse the pun) who have no contact with food producers. It's all mystical to you. You have no idea where the shit you eat came from. That's a problem, for me at least.

P.S. Do you like cheese? Every cheese you've ever eaten was invented by farmers, with their garish rural "culture" (which you have the tenacity to put in quotation marks, LOL!) of raising animals.

 

[editor]

Meat being cheap is precisely the problem. That's why everyone eats so much of it. Next you'll say "so only the rich can eat meat then?" and I'll say "No, of course thats not what I'm suggesting, the fact of massive wealth inequality doesn't sit well with me either. But that doesn't mean meat should be cheap today, so poorer people can "feel rich" by eating cheap, industrially raised beef. It's bullshit aspirational stuff.

Actually, you should care about losing the culture of animal husbandry, because it's integral to the rise of modern humans and it doesn't HAVE TO necessitate the cruel industrial slaughter of billions of animals in sheds. I'm against industrial meat in all its form. I don't buy meat from supermarkets. Ever. You don't know where that shit came from. I'm lucky because I don't live in London and have access to farmers who raise a small number of animals in good conditions. I have no moral problem eating that meat.

The distinction between small-scale farmers and industrial meat production is absolutely essential to this analysis and one that is so easily overlooked by urban dwellers (excuse the pun) who have no contact with food producers. It's all mystical to you. You have no idea where the shit you eat came from. That's a problem, for me at least.

P.S. Do you like cheese? Every cheese you've ever eaten was invented by farmers, with their garish rural "culture" (which you have the tenacity to put in quotation marks, LOL!) of raising animals.

Love cheese but I'm hoping technology will help me completely give up the stuff by providing tasty vegan alternatives, like it has done for milk and meat.

I've already hugely reduced my intake of dairy produce thanks to science/new flavours/adventerous chefs etc

 

[Flavour]

Love cheese but I'm hoping technology will help me completely give up the stuff by providing tasty vegan alternatives, like it has done for milk and meat.

I've already hugely reduced my intake of dairy produce thanks to science.

Fair enough, I'll stop here. I do highly recommend the Ecologist review of the book that belboid posted though.

 

[editor]

Fair enough, I'll stop here. I do highly recommend the Ecologist review of the book that belboid posted though.

I don't think FALC is a fully thought-out viable future - it's clearly full of all sorts of improbable scenarios and almighty 'what'ifs' - but there's some interesting stuff there, especially how technology could be harnessed to really change the course of humanity.

 

[seventh bullet]

It's just shallow trendy left politics, not much to it really. The basic idea is that under communism technology could massively improve living standards, but there's nothing about how we get from here to there. In fact Bastani regurgitates a sort of reheated Stalinism whereby communism becomes an inevitability at a certain stage of the development of the productive forces, and class struggle is relegated to a sociologically interesting phenomenon.

Indeed, Stalin wouldn't have wrote like a trendy lefty twat, but he too envisaged a technologically advanced full communism. The earlier waystation along that road, the 'building of socialism,' with its accelerated capitalism and supposedly careful attention given to its direction by the revolutionary state, was a bit messy though.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Does every post here have to be totally original? If you're finding it too dull and cliched for you, others may find something of interest. Ot we could just follow Orang Utan's lead and make it all personal and bitchy.

I'm not criticising your post for not being original. I'm discussing the book you posted about, and criticising it for not being as original or groundbreaking as its billed as.

 

[8ball]

It's at least optimistic being a vegan and living in a yurt really isn't going to appeal

I have nothing against yurts, and omce they have decent vegan cheeseburgers I think things will come along famously.

 

[editor]

I have nothing against yurts, and omce they have decent vegan cheeseburgers I think things will come along famously.

They've got them in the States. I had an Impossible cheeseburger and my meat eating chuns - who insisted on having a bite - concluded that it tasted just as good as a good quality meet burger and the vegan cheese was pretty good too.

We tried burgers from 2 companies that want to replace meat with veggie patties that 'bleed' — and the winner is clear

 

[8ball]

They've got them in the States. I had an Impossible cheeseburger and my meat eating chuns - who insisted on having a bite - concluded that it tasted just as good as a good quality meet burger and the vegan cheese was pretty good too.

We tried burgers from 2 companies that want to replace meat with veggie patties that 'bleed' — and the winner is clear

I’d want to try it first, but it sounds promising.

I also look forward to our agrarian future where I can hunt a vegan bison riding a vegan horse.

 

[Crispy]

It might be sloppy thinking, but I'm just glad to see some optimistic writing about the future course of technology that doesn't involve mega corporations controlling every aspect of life on earth.

 

[8ball]

It might be sloppy thinking, but I'm just glad to see some optimistic writing about the future course of technology that doesn't involve mega corporations controlling every aspect of life on earth.

Fuck worrying about sloppy thinking, we deserve a bit of perking up.

 

[Crispy]

More of this sort of thing. The more there is, the greater the chance of some of it being rigorous.

 

[8ball]

More of this sort of thing. The more there is, the greater the chance of some of it being rigorous.

There’s something about “fully automated luxury communism” that gives me a bit of a shudder, to be fair.

 

[Crispy]

There’s something about “fully automated luxury communism” that gives me a bit of a shudder, to be fair.

Oh I like it. It's basically Iain Banks' Culture

 

[8ball]

Oh I like it. It's basically Iain Banks' Culture

It has an appeal, but even the Culture, shackled only by Banks’ imagination, had its repressive elements.

 

[ffsear]

Aron Bastani is a weapons grade narcissist. He's a capitalist, his currency is likes, retweets, shares and views... All adds up to one thing.... £££