Football Lads Against Fascism

[cyberpink]

I would advise a short break from this thread to think.

Your post above uses a classic mechanism directly related to racism i.e. you see others in an “out-group” as being very similar (“cultivating a personality is too much like hard work”) and your “in-group” as being diverse.

I see the "others" or the "out-group" being the "lads lads lads lager lager" MALE culture of racism, bullying, rape and selfish greed which is an attempt to compensate for their inability to express their emotions properly. And yes, it is all the same types. You find them in every town, usually in the pubs festooned with St George flags.

The "in-group" are of course the people such as those here, open minded and who enjoy the nicer things in life, festivals, music, relationships, inclusivity and art and trying to make the world a more fair and socially just place for all.

I see no problem in the "in-group" refusing to have the "out-group" spoil it for them. It's always been like this. And by sword or semtex, it always will be.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

The "in-group" are of course the people such as those here, open minded and who enjoy the nicer things in life, festivals, music, relationships, inclusivity and art and trying to make the world a more fair and socially just place for all.

I see no problem in the "in-group" refusing to have the "out-group" spoil it for them. It's always been like this. And by sword or semtex, it always will be.

The in-group and out-groups I’m referencing are the psychology definitions. You have demonstrated a textbook example of bigotry in the name of anti-racism. See my bold in your comment and the quote below…

Ethnocentrism was described by Sumner as a universal characteristic of human social groups whereby a differentiation arises between ourselves, the we-group, or in-group, and everybody else, or the others-group, out-groups. The insiders in a we-group are in a relation of peace, order, law, government, and industry, to each other … Ethnocentrism is the technical name for this view of things in which one's own group is the center of everything, and all others are scaled and rated with reference to it … Each group nourishes its own pride and vanity, boasts itself superior, exalts its own divinities, and looks with contempt on outsiders.

Intergroup Discrimination: Ingroup Love or Outgroup Hate? (Chapter 5) - The Cambridge Handbook of the Psychology of Prejudice

The Cambridge Handbook of the Psychology of Prejudice - October 2016

www.cambridge.org

 

[tonysingh]

Racism at football will never go away, simple as that. The gormless two bobs spouting abuse will still shuffle through the turnstiles, they'll still watch the game on telly if they aint at the ground and as we've seen since the Euro final, they'll still reach for their social media post-match. It's down to decent fans to drown the shitcunts out when they pipe up with their pish. They sing something racist, we sing something else louder.

A lot of the reason why racism is resurgent in football right now is down to us normal fans and the fact we let it fucking happen. This is on us really, we should have fronted them at the first peep of something. If needs be, we front them out instead. But like i said, for whatever reason, we allowed racism to follow us into the grounds again like a foetid half time pie.

 

[tonysingh]

My analysis of this behaviour is rooted in growing up around it for decades. Of course it's simplistic. There is nothing complicated about getting rat arsed on Stella Artois and cheap coke to indulge in punch ups and "a good old sing song". It is a simplistic activity that only simpletons would enjoy.
The racist abuse online is far more cowardly, and though it is carried out as a result of a football match not being won by those entitled enough to believe they deserve a victory, is swiftly prevented by doxxing those involved and making sure their employer is aware. There is no shortage of people who are ready to pay a visit to the online racist in person, once identified.

The causes of football violence are different from club to club and region to region and with a multitude of antecedent factors. The one thing it is palpably not is simple. It also does not automatically follow that football violence = racism. I know plenty of blokes that liked a tear up prior/at/after a game but would equally fight the racists as the opposition.

I would also draw attention to the "a good old sing song" line there. Singing of football songs is one the last truly working class folk art forms. Anywhere from dozens to 80000+ men, women and children all singing as one. It's a truly beautiful and uplifting thing when it happens and has a history that reaches back beyond even the formation of the game itself really. To dismiss it as the prerogative of the gormless and unthinking hooligan as you do is as classist as any of the other stuff you spouted.

 

[krtek a houby]

So how has that worked out for you? Given that John Barnes is still seeing bananas chucked onto football pitches 40 years on from the famous picture of him in 1982.
I think your idea of enlightening bulldog-tattooed Chelsea fans with essays on Gramsci is very sweet, but sadly the idea of Marxism is more of a turn-off now than it has ever been to most working class people, who would rather vote for the tory party even against their own interests than entertain the idea of Corbyn and the like.
Doesn't seem to me you have much experience at all with working class people or their communities.
How would you propose introducing your "class politics" lessons to patrons of the Slaughtered Lamb or whatever, who love nothing better than getting pissed up and beating the shit out of left wing public school gobshites? Maybe put some Engels texts in their wraps of cheap cocaine?

Ever thought that the problem isn't your tattooed straw men patrons of fictional pubs, but the middle classes, the liberals and centrists?

 

[cyberpink]

The causes of football violence are different from club to club and region to region and with a multitude of antecedent factors. The one thing it is palpably not is simple. It also does not automatically follow that football violence = racism. I know plenty of blokes that liked a tear up prior/at/after a game but would equally fight the racists as the opposition.

I would also draw attention to the "a good old sing song" line there. Singing of football songs is one the last truly working class folk art forms. Anywhere from dozens to 80000+ men, women and children all singing as one. It's a truly beautiful and uplifting thing when it happens and has a history that reaches back beyond even the formation of the game itself really. To dismiss it as the prerogative of the gormless and unthinking hooligan as you do is as classist as any of the other stuff you spouted.

so, "not all hooligans" then? I've already stated most of what you say above. Picking up on the "sing song" part and taking umbrage to that seems a bit odd. I certainly don't see it as the prerogative or the sole right of racist hooligans, that would be ridiculous.

 

[cyberpink]

The in-group and out-groups I’m referencing are the psychology definitions. You have demonstrated a textbook example of bigotry in the name of anti-racism. See my bold in your comment and the quote below…

I'm obviously bigoted against racists, as well as moronic football hooliganism in general, and I am proudly bigoted against "lager lager lads lads" culture. Even if they aren't racist they make a mess, and lead to things like Heysel. And I'm definitely bigoted toward everything I mentioned in my earlier post, specifically those that yell the sexist abuse from their England flag festooned white vans, and their "boss babe" women with their sluglike plastic porno lips and orange flesh.
The world is changing, perhaps not as fast as I would like, but generally I don't allow such people in my orbit, and don't enter into their pitiful world.

If there is a new "firm" of "lads" that are keen on smashing the skulls of nazi football racists, I'm all for it, but I would trust their judgement about as much as I trust the police in the grand scheme of things. And I very much doubt they will be visiting their nazi opponents in hospital to try and educate them on class politics. Though I would like to see them try. Hahaha. If you wanted to really fuck em up, drop some wraps of cocaine laced with fentanyl in the toilets of their favourite boozer, though that of course would be tatamount to murder, and I don't fancy spending my life locked up in the big house with the very scumbags to which I refer.

As we've all seen, they'll fight each other if they have no foreign/black/gay/left wing opponents to fight, such is their bloodlust. It's not something I share.
It's just a shame that their appetite for cocaine is destroying inner city youth. Otherwise I'd be happy to let them fight each other to the death. Nothing of value lost.

 

[tonysingh]

so, "not all hooligans" then? I've already stated most of what you say above. Picking up on the "sing song" part and taking umbrage to that seems a bit odd. I certainly don't see it as the prerogative or the sole right of racist hooligans, that would be ridiculous.

No, not all hooligans, you're quite right. Again, if you knew anything about the history of football from its foundation to now, you'd know that what you call a 'hooligan' is essentially a codeword for the working class. It's also a borderline ethnic slur against the Irish, given the words etymology. In short, when football was created as a form of recreation in the early to mid Victorian era, there was huge anti Irish sentiment in Britain. Football grew popular with the working class but not how the upper middle and upper class had hoped. The Age of Equipoise had its victims home and abroad after all and those here often rebelled and often violently. At the same time in Ireland, the Potato Famine and Land War had their violent parts. Hence the two were conflated and boom, the Hooligan was born.

You failed to differentiate between racists singing songs at football (which barely happens,if at all.) and the rest of us enjoying football culture. And yes, I use culture totally without irony.

 

[tonysingh]

I'm obviously bigoted against racists, as well as moronic football hooliganism in general, and I am proudly bigoted against "lager lager lads lads" culture. Even if they aren't racist they make a mess, and lead to things like Heysel. And I'm definitely bigoted toward everything I mentioned in my earlier post, specifically those that yell the sexist abuse from their England flag festooned white vans, and their "boss babe" women with their sluglike plastic porno lips and orange flesh.
The world is changing, perhaps not as fast as I would like, but generally I don't allow such people in my orbit, and don't enter into their pitiful world.

If there is a new "firm" of "lads" that are keen on smashing the skulls of nazi football racists, I'm all for it, but I would trust their judgement about as much as I trust the police in the grand scheme of things. And I very much doubt they will be visiting their nazi opponents in hospital to try and educate them on class politics. Though I would like to see them try. Hahaha. If you wanted to really fuck em up, drop some wraps of cocaine laced with fentanyl in the toilets of their favourite boozer, though that of course would be tatamount to murder, and I don't fancy spending my life locked up in the big house with the very scumbags to which I refer.

As we've all seen, they'll fight each other if they have no foreign/black/gay/left wing opponents to fight, such is their bloodlust. It's not something I share.
It's just a shame that their appetite for cocaine is destroying inner city youth. Otherwise I'd be happy to let them fight each other to the death. Nothing of value lost.

Almost everything you've written there is utter pish. Quite the achievement.

Also, before my phone battery runs out, I've spent time in the big house too and for serious crimes. Am I a scumbag also? By your moral code, I also deserve to die?

 

[cyberpink]

Almost everything you've written there is utter pish. Quite the achievement.

Also, before my phone battery runs out, I've spent time in the big house too and for serious crimes. Am I a scumbag also? By your moral code, I also deserve to die?

Depends what you were in for. I doubt you were in for racially abusing people, but that's not all these "lads" do after a day on the Stella and shite cocaine is it?
Domestic abuse, rape, all in a days work for the "lads" with the mentality I have described.
I don't think you were in for any of those things by the way. But you can bet DAZZA DA LEGEND and his mates were.
You may be right about the historical definitions of "hooligan" and I don't doubt the uplifting power of song in a crowd - it started in the churches long before football, and look what a bunch of rapey bastards they can be... as well as violent, racist, murderous and openly sexist to this day to the point of denying rape victims abortions, so tell me more about my moral code haha

 

[cyberpink]

No, not all hooligans, you're quite right. Again, if you knew anything about the history of football from its foundation to now, you'd know that what you call a 'hooligan' is essentially a codeword for the working class. It's also a borderline ethnic slur against the Irish, given the words etymology. In short, when football was created as a form of recreation in the early to mid Victorian era, there was huge anti Irish sentiment in Britain. Football grew popular with the working class but not how the upper middle and upper class had hoped. The Age of Equipoise had its victims home and abroad after all and those here often rebelled and often violently. At the same time in Ireland, the Potato Famine and Land War had their violent parts. Hence the two were conflated and boom, the Hooligan was born.

You failed to differentiate between racists singing songs at football (which barely happens,if at all.) and the rest of us enjoying football culture. And yes, I use culture totally without irony.

There are of course some elements of football culture I find acceptable. Some of the chants are funny. I prefer the womens game though, far less amateur dramatics when one gets fouled, and far less involvement with insidious brands and people like Rupert Murdoch, who I really hope dies soon, for far more important reasons than mere football.

 

[Humberto]

Stick with your comrades, speak the truth and be decent is surprisingly effective. Society/the world IS fucked up imo, but it always has been and always will be.

 

[cyberpink]

Stick with your comrades, speak the truth and be decent is surprisingly effective. Society/the world IS fucked up imo, but it always has been and always will be.

This is how I live my life, and I'm happy.

 

[Fallon]

The Combat 18 masterminding the riot is debatable, though.

Yep. This was later added to the article - Editor's Note: It was subsequently established that C18 played a relatively minor role, if any, in the Dublin riot. There was enough of a generally anti-Irish element among England's hooligans to cause the mayhem without the impetus of MI5's Nazi Honeypot.

 

[cyberpink]

Yep. This was later added to the article - Editor's Note: It was subsequently established that C18 played a relatively minor role, if any, in the Dublin riot. There was enough of a generally anti-Irish element among England's hooligans to cause the mayhem without the impetus of MI5's Nazi Honeypot.

Wait, Combat18 was an MI5 honeypot? Really? I mean I want to believe! What is the scoop on that? No conspiracy stuff though
Has my whole life been a lie?
Also I have read my comments back just now, and I must tell you that I had my second Covid jab on Wednesday and it made me a bit angry with the hooligans that reject common sense and science. It also made me cross that Trump shut down the NSC that would have meant a faster response. As a long-term ambition that is very unladylike I intend to travel as far as I need to in order to shit upon the grave of Donald Trump. They will have to bury that bitch on the Moon to stop me. And I am extremely overweight and I shit kilos at a time. Trump disbanded NSC pandemic unit that experts had praised

 

[krtek a houby]

Now that we all know the etymology of the word "hooligan" (cheers, ta tonysingh ) is it still acceptable to be tossing the word round so freely?

 

[fishfinger]

Now that we all know the etymology of the word "hooligan" (cheers, ta tonysingh ) is it still acceptable to be tossing the word round so freely?

Should we stop using the word "tory" as well?

 

[krtek a houby]

Should we stop using the word "tory" as well?

Maybe

 

[cyberpink]

Now that we all know the etymology of the word "hooligan" (cheers, ta tonysingh ) is it still acceptable to be tossing the word round so freely?

We are told of some long lost etymology surrounding the word.

Let's talk about the vandals. Is vandalism a slur on the brave Vandals?

I want to talk about the fucking Alans. They were proper bastards. Alans - Wikipedia

 

[tonysingh]

Now that we all know the etymology of the word "hooligan" (cheers, ta tonysingh ) is it still acceptable to be tossing the word round so freely?

'On the one hand it's at the milder end of anti Irish sentiment in itself, but broadly speaking language is incredibly important. I think it's probably a matter for the individual. I think that if you're going to hold forth about football violence then you should maybe be better informed. That's about as far as I can be arsed to go right now, to better save from getting dragged into an arguement here.



(Edited to add that it occurred to me as I was writing there that exploring the anti Irish attitudes of the British would be a fucking banging PhD thesis)

 

[cyberpink]

'On the one hand it's at the milder end of anti Irish sentiment in itself, but broadly speaking language is incredibly important. I think it's probably a matter for the individual. I think that if you're going to hold forth about football violence then you should maybe be better informed. That's about as far as I can be arsed to go right now, to better save from getting dragged into an arguement here.



(Edited to add that it occurred to me as I was writing there that exploring the anti Irish attitudes of the British would be a fucking banging PhD thesis)

I'm really not having for a second the idea that the word "hooligan" is suddenly an exclusive term that only described Irish people. You don't get to cry "hooligan" as a word that is inherently prejudicial toward Irish people. Not after all this time. The idea of "football hooligan" has never involved Irish "lads" because Irish lads are graceful in defeat.

Sure if I used the word "knacker" or worse, similar simile, to take it even further back into the sailor and trader slang on the old ships.
Maybe you could hit me for the "balagan" which is a Turk/Arabic phrase for "troublemaker" (still used across the middle east) that emerged from ship-speak in the pirate ages, and was likely bastardised into common parlance into "hooligan" amid the long card games and slavery that was the high seas 400 years ago.

But "hooligan" is not a word used to describe Irish lads in 2021. You know it too, so don't be such a wet fart.
I'm impressed with your etymology, but don't wear it as some sort of shield or an excuse to shut me down. You'll need to work harder than that, son.

 

[tonysingh]

I'm really not having for a second the idea that the word "hooligan" is suddenly an exclusive term that only described Irish people. You don't get to cry "hooligan" as a word that is inherently prejudicial toward Irish people. Not after all this time. The idea of "football hooligan" has never involved Irish "lads" because Irish lads are graceful in defeat.

Sure if I used the word "knacker" or worse, similar simile, to take it even further back into the sailor and trader slang on the old ships.
Maybe you could hit me for the "balagan" which is a Turk/Arabic phrase for "troublemaker" (still used across the middle east) that emerged from ship-speak in the pirate ages, and was likely bastardised into common parlance into "hooligan" amid the long card games and slavery that was the high seas 400 years ago.

But "hooligan" is not a word used to describe Irish lads in 2021. You know it too, so don't be such a wet fart.
I'm impressed with your etymology, but don't wear it as some sort of shield or an excuse to shut me down. You'll need to work harder than that, son.

Ah. It's you. That would explain a lot and really should have been obvious from the beginning. Still, welcome back.

Excellent ethnic sweeping generalisation on us Irish lads being gracious in defeat by the way. Interesting that you seem to think you have the authority to tell someone (me, as an Irishman) on the receiving end whether or not I get to be offended. Excellent gatekeeping there well-done.

It's not the word that follows or precedes hooligan that's the issue, it's the word itself. But again, since it's yourself, i expect you won't admit fault.

 

[Athos]

Ah. It's you. That would explain a lot and really should have been obvious from the beginning. Still, welcome back.

Excellent ethnic sweeping generalisation on us Irish lads being gracious in defeat by the way. Interesting that you seem to think you have the authority to tell someone (me, as an Irishman) on the receiving end whether or not I get to be offended. Excellent gatekeeping there well-done.

It's not the word that follows or precedes hooligan that's the issue, it's the word itself. But again, since it's yourself, i expect you won't admit fault.

Who is it?

 

[krtek a houby]

'On the one hand it's at the milder end of anti Irish sentiment in itself, but broadly speaking language is incredibly important. I think it's probably a matter for the individual. I think that if you're going to hold forth about football violence then you should maybe be better informed. That's about as far as I can be arsed to go right now, to better save from getting dragged into an arguement here.



(Edited to add that it occurred to me as I was writing there that exploring the anti Irish attitudes of the British would be a fucking banging PhD thesis)

Would recommend chapter 9 in Lentin & McVeigh's Racism and Anti-Racism in Ireland. Also, Liz Curtis' Nothing But the Same Old Story - The Roots of Anti-Irish Racism. The latter haven't read in over 30 years, the former references it a bit.

 

[TopCat]

Fucking hell

 

[tonysingh]

Would recommend chapter 9 in Lentin & McVeigh's Racism and Anti-Racism in Ireland. Also, Liz Curtis' Nothing But the Same Old Story - The Roots of Anti-Irish Racism. The latter haven't read in over 30 years, the former references it a bit.

Ta.

Any background reading for the work ahead is appreciated.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

But you won't change anyone's mind simply by giving them the occasional hiding

I have met people who had dabbled with pro-fash violence who said that it was a bit of an epiphany to discover that students and reds and anarchists werent all weedy vegetarians but some could dish it out too. I think that clearing them off the streets with some violence did put off the less committed and may have led some to reflect on their flirtations with fascism. How many and how much I dont know

Technology has changed too. 'Dissuading' pamphleteers and paper sellers and marchers was effective pre internet.

 

[Pickman's model]

I have met people who had dabbled with pro-fash violence who said that it was a bit of an epiphany to discover that students and reds and anarchists werent all weedy vegetarians but some could dish it out too. I think that clearing them off the streets with some violence did put off the less committed and may have led some to reflect on their flirtations with fascism. How many and how much I dont know

Technology has changed too. 'Dissuading' pamphleteers and paper sellers and marchers was effective pre internet.

You're quite right. But those were the days when the streets were being cleared and altho there have been some successes in recent years the fash are not being beaten off the streets as they were before. This isn't to put down anti-fascists today but to recognise we live in different times

 

[Pickman's model]

We are told of some long lost etymology surrounding the word.

Let's talk about the vandals. Is vandalism a slur on the brave Vandals?

I want to talk about the fucking Alans. They were proper bastards. Alans - Wikipedia

pisspoor whataboutery

 

[Fallon]

This is our first ever #FLAF podcast so please be kind, we’re still learning...

Episode 1 - England Belongs To Us

Five English born lads from various ethnic backgrounds & a Scotsman discuss the Euros, England & Racism... from the fans’ initial booing of ‘the knee’ & the reaction to it from England supporters who oppose the racists. The podcast also touches on the aftermath of the defeat to Italy in the final, the racist abuse of Marcus Rashford, the defacing of the mural in Manchester & the local community’s fantastic response to it.

Join - Riaz, Shaz, Cal, Alex, Tony & Lee for our first podcast.

Football Lads & Lasses • A podcast on Spotify for Podcasters

This is the podcast of Football Lads & Lasses Against Fascism [FLAF] The podcast will discuss football [soccer] and politics via recorded & live interviews, discussions & debates, with working class football fans from England, Scotland, Wales & Ireland [north & south] as well as with...

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