This is spot on, and very well said by Pie (as usual):
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Football Lads Against Fascism
- Thread starter Red About Town
- Start date
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
What do people make of the claim that some/a lot of the online abuse comes from other countries by the way?
I heard Southgate in his interview say that they knew because of IP addresses etc that a lot of the online abuse came from other countries. I've since seen a Tory commentator also argue this and some MI5 bod has said they don't think it's true.
I've been wondering because on the one hand it sounds a bit like the Remainers who say Russian bots made everyone vote for Brexit, but on the other hand far right and racist orgs do seem to be better organised in some countries than here and it doesn't seem inconceivable they would want to stoke racism.
Also, I'm not tech literate enough to know but assuming that online racists are fairly likely to use VPN's, how could you even tell where they are posting from?
I heard Southgate in his interview say that they knew because of IP addresses etc that a lot of the online abuse came from other countries. I've since seen a Tory commentator also argue this and some MI5 bod has said they don't think it's true.
I've been wondering because on the one hand it sounds a bit like the Remainers who say Russian bots made everyone vote for Brexit, but on the other hand far right and racist orgs do seem to be better organised in some countries than here and it doesn't seem inconceivable they would want to stoke racism.
Also, I'm not tech literate enough to know but assuming that online racists are fairly likely to use VPN's, how could you even tell where they are posting from?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Someone on possibly the English fans are racist thread posted up some links to a short summary of sources that have tried to analyse country of origin of racist tweets . Along with posts in English , French and Spanish also featured .
It is possible to identify whether an address is a VPN , BBC and ITV are very good at it but social media doesn’t do it .
It is possible to identify whether an address is a VPN , BBC and ITV are very good at it but social media doesn’t do it .
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What would be your proposed alternative? Fight them? Drug their drinks? It's highly unlikely they can be re-educated and you don't strike me as a fighting person.
strung out
💩 🤣 🍆 💦 🧐 👻 🐝 🐈⬛
Hard to tell, but I reckon plenty comes from racists abroad as well as racists at home.
European football generally and English football specifically is huge overseas, and given how often black England players get targeted whenever they play in Eastern Europe, or the anti-black racism you get in South America and Asia, I don't think you need to start getting into conspiracy theories about foreign actors or people using VPNs to realise just how much of it is out there.
There are multiple reports of black Wales players getting racially abused in the last couple of years, with someone in Singapore arrested for one of those instances.
And obviously there's also the Mancunian estate agents etc who are too stupid to hide their identity before tweeting their racism.
In a similar vein, you don't have to go far on twitter to find all kinds of homophobic nonsense coming from obviously foreign twitter accounts every time pride or rainbow laces etc gets promoted in the Premier League (alongside our home grown homophobes of course).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
That's ok,you don't strike me as a thinking person
So, you think by igoring these racist hooligans and removing them from social media platforms and denying them access to football matches is perpetuating the problem?
I'm keen to hear what solutions beyond that you have in mind to "solve it". As I said, I doubt you are the street-fighting type.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yes, I think ignoring a problem doesn't solve it. Removing them from social media platforms doesn't solve it. Stopping them getting into football matches doesn't solve it. You are a great fan of out of sight out of mind. But racists are racists in communities, in workplaces, in schools and colleges and pubs and night clubs and on trains and buses etc. None of this means anything to you, I'm sure, as long as you don't see them.
But the best way to destroy an enemy is to turn them into a friend. You might thing re-education means chucking them into camps but appealling tho the thought may be, it wouldn't work like that. Some racists - not all obvs - are amenable to reason and that's how this is changed, not by Lewishams or Waterloos etc but by plugging away at racists and racism when you find them. Not all of this can be done pacifically of course. But promoting class politics not race politics. Yeh you won't change everyone's minds. But if you don't try, if you take your tack of censorship, you'll never change anyone's mind.
As I say you don't strike me as the thinking type
Colin Hunt
Active Member
Your analysis of football hooliganism is classist and simplistic, rooted in assumptions about the workshy and aggressive poor. If there's any truth to those assumptions (which is doubtful), they cannot be extended to cover online racist abuse, which is carried out for vastly different reasons than football violence.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
He is stupid and short-sighted. He will go far in the labour or Tory parties.
So how has that worked out for you? Given that John Barnes is still seeing bananas chucked onto football pitches 40 years on from the famous picture of him in 1982.
I think your idea of enlightening bulldog-tattooed Chelsea fans with essays on Gramsci is very sweet, but sadly the idea of Marxism is more of a turn-off now than it has ever been to most working class people, who would rather vote for the tory party even against their own interests than entertain the idea of Corbyn and the like.
Doesn't seem to me you have much experience at all with working class people or their communities.
How would you propose introducing your "class politics" lessons to patrons of the Slaughtered Lamb or whatever, who love nothing better than getting pissed up and beating the shit out of left wing public school gobshites? Maybe put some Engels texts in their wraps of cheap cocaine?
My analysis of this behaviour is rooted in growing up around it for decades. Of course it's simplistic. There is nothing complicated about getting rat arsed on Stella Artois and cheap coke to indulge in punch ups and "a good old sing song". It is a simplistic activity that only simpletons would enjoy.
The racist abuse online is far more cowardly, and though it is carried out as a result of a football match not being won by those entitled enough to believe they deserve a victory, is swiftly prevented by doxxing those involved and making sure their employer is aware. There is no shortage of people who are ready to pay a visit to the online racist in person, once identified.
Pickmans Model - "the best way to destroy an enemy is to turn them into a friend"
sorry but I don't want to be friends with people who spent half their lives making monkey chants or throwing bananas onto pitches.
I want to see them live worthless lives and suffer from their decisions to the point that they remove themselves from a society that does not need or want them.
sorry but I don't want to be friends with people who spent half their lives making monkey chants or throwing bananas onto pitches.
I want to see them live worthless lives and suffer from their decisions to the point that they remove themselves from a society that does not need or want them.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
With every post your want of wit becomes clearer. I'm not a Marxist. I never said I was a Marxist. I haven't advocated bringing long-dead Italian Marxists up with anyone. Or even living labourites.
You'd run a mile from the Chelsea headhunters, given you just want them out of sight and mind. The last time I (with a load of other anti-fascists) met the headhunters they were notable for the speed of their retreat and the way they fought each other to escape onto their coaches.
But you won't change anyone's mind simply by giving them the occasional hiding. And you won't change anyone's mind as on your own evidence you're too craven to do anything about them yourself, you'd rather other people kept them out of football grounds and off social media.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
So you really want them to be embittered auld racists and their children to be embittered young racists. How's that working out for you? Forty years of failure not enough to suggest your auld ways aren't working?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
So what you're really saying is there is an acceptable level of racism, as long as it's not online or at the footy you're quite happy to ignore it. Which is a really shitty attitude.
You have stated that your solution to the resurgence of ugly racism in football is to "educate them on class politics" which is as vague and as bemusing as it is comical.
I would of course run more than a mile from Chelsea Headhunters, though the old "firms" of the 80's and 90's appear to be far less of a thing today.
I'm sure if I were amid groups of anti-fascists intent on countering the hooligan racists with violence, I would join in just as you claim to have done.
My opinion is really quite straightforward, the Blair government was as era where racism was dismissed as the nonsense of past backward thinking, as everyone was hugging each other in the stands and in the nightclubs after taking E.
Now the E culture has given way to the more insideous cocaine culture, we are seeing a return to the ugly stuff not seen as much since the worst days of Cyrille Regis.
It's interesting that you seem to believe you can change people's minds on "class politics" (as if these racist fools give a shit) yet you can't even debate this topic with me without the need to throw in insults and calling me "stupid and short-sighted".
Good luck trying to re-educate "DAZZA DA LEGEND" and his idiot flock. Maybe you could sell them cocaine cut with viagra and watch them try and fuck each other?
You would probably have more luck that way converting them into being more tolerant people if you give them the means to accept their frustrations regarding their sexuality or their inadequate sense of belonging. The reasons that these men (and it is always men) turn to violence and racial hatred are many, and your solution is really not going to make any headway.
Removing these people from influential positions, or their jobs, does work. Jim Davidson is a prime example. He had prime time TV shows espousing open racism, now he lives in Spain in a semen-stained dressing gown with no influence at all.
In my opinion racism should be challenged whenever it becomes visible. You simply cannot stop the older generation from being racist. It's too late for them. They will die out, and their views will die with them. I am happy that anyone using the "N" word around black people should expect to be beaten severely and swiftly, be they male or female. There are legal mechanisms in place to prevent workplace discrimination, and given that the topic we are discussing is about football related racism, of course I'm only speaking of online and footy related racism. My attitude is not shitty at all, I've been challenging racist behaviour for as long as you have, perhaps even longer, but I am still trying to work out how you intend to re-educate these Stella swigging post-Brexit racist scumbags with "class politics".
You have had ample opportunities to explain how you propose to do this. Maybe try again?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I have been clear that talking to people isn't always going to work some posts back. I have said clearly that physical methods are needed too. I don't know if you've any actual history of anti-fascist or anti- racist activity, your posts tho suggest you haven't. I on the other hand do have, including at events like Waterloo. If you know anything about afa you'll know they espoused a twin- track approach which is as valid now as it was in the 90s, of a physical and a political approach. And that's what I'm suggesting, that where you can you challenge these views.
As you might recall, the BNP stopped street politics because they were basically beaten off them. And then they went on to do very well electorally, until Jim Dowson pulled his money. Then ukip did well at the polls. And this is your huge blind spot: that even if racists are just spouting in the pub, even if they're not at the football or online, they're still racists and what's changed with radical right / fascist politics is that atm there is no electoral party to the right of the Tories. You may contend, and I'd agree, that atm the Tories have largely seized that ground. But if you are opposed to racism and fascism then you ought to challenge those views where you can. Because it is only by challenging those views that racists can be made to change them. Unless you know better, like.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I haven't proposed to re-educate anyone
Well you are wrong - I never mentioned poor people at all - that appears to be a projection of yours. There are as many well-heeled public schoolboy racists as there are working class. I never mentioned "workshy" at all, in fact I suggested that many of the cultural ideas were picked up from watching Danny Dyer DVDs after work.
And there is a difference between football violence and racism within football. I know of several people from the West Ham hooligans of old that are decidedly anti-racist, and who are ashamed of their "lads" movements descending into embarrassing racist nonsense like the DFLA and Tommy Robinson worship.
So I can't see a classist angle with anything I said, and as mentioned, I do see football hooligan culture as a whole being pretty simplistic, and appealing to simpletons.
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Well you did, by trying to say that re-education doesn't involve chucking people into camps.
"promoting class politics not race politics" seems to be your solution, alongside a good old fashioned kicking. I have no problem with the latter if that's what it takes, no pasaran and all that, but I fail to see how on Earth you would be able to promote class politics to "DAZZA DA LEGEND" and his coke-snorting cohorts.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
If you bother reading my posts instead of just looking at them you'll see I have said talking to people won't always work. Sometimes it will and those occasions should be taken advantage of, and other times someone will as you say be set in their ways and there's no point wasting your breath. There needs to be a diversity of tactics in opposing racism and as in any campaign some tactics will work in some situations and not in others.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
I mean, I agree with your last sentence there (at least proportionately, in terms of absolute numbers there's probably less just cos of there being less public schoolboys overall). But:
Were you talking about well-heeled public schoolboy racists picking up cheap DVDs from the local Esso garage on their way home from their dead end shitty jobs there?
Well I wasn't talking about poverty stricken communities sniffing £50 wraps of cocaine was I?
A diversity of tactics including reducing these racists to the sidelines by deleting their social media accounts, getting them sacked from their jobs, banning them from football matches and not including them in modern society whatsoever. Glad we agree. I happen to think promoting "class politics" to these idiots is like trying to teach algebra to a poodle, but I guess we all have our ambitions.
Colin Hunt
Active Member
I'm quite tired so this post will be pretty brief.
'shitty dead end jobs'
'don't really even want to be "top boy" in their "firm" because that's too much work'
'England flag festooned white vans'
'beautician or "boss babe" women with their sluglike lips and orange flesh'
There's a picture being created here by the words that you use. And it's not a picture of an aspirational middle class existence. Hence my point that your post is rooted in assumptions about the workshy and aggressive poor.
You may not have directly mentioned poor people but much of your post traffics in stereotypes about working class people. Some quotes:
'shitty dead end jobs'
'don't really even want to be "top boy" in their "firm" because that's too much work'
'England flag festooned white vans'
'beautician or "boss babe" women with their sluglike lips and orange flesh'
There's a picture being created here by the words that you use. And it's not a picture of an aspirational middle class existence. Hence my point that your post is rooted in assumptions about the workshy and aggressive poor.
So why does your post not mention them at all? It's quite disingenuous to claim that your posts are targeting 'well-heeled public schoolboy racists' when you're talking about white van men drinking Stella and doing cheap coke. It's classist dogwhistling all the way down.
After working at their shitty dead end job they throw themselves into Danny Dyer films, because they can't be arsed to take on more responsibility in their firm because it's too much like hard work (in other words, they are workshy). In any case I disagree with the idea that hooligan media is a driver of this culture rather than merely a reflection of it.
I know there is a difference between football violence and racism within football. I said that in my first post. It was your post that linked racism to the same forces that you believe are behind football violence, when that view is just not borne out by reality as they are different phenomena driven by different factors.
Hopefully this post explains how I found a classist angle in your post.
RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
Your reference to this stereotype of Dazza Da Legend is clearly taking a broad brush to working class lads. My background was growing up in the environment you’re characterising. We’re discussing this on urban with generally politically switched on people. Most normal people have lives and don’t spend their days naval gazing. What’s my point? While there’s a percentage of people that will regurgitate messages absorbed from the media without consciously ripping it apart does not mean they are fundamentally racist and should not be engaged with. In my experience the hardcore, committed racists are rare. These toerags aim to take others along this path with them. By not engaging with those with casusal racist views they may stay on that path.
Well those obsessed with class will always find ways to see classism I suppose. The lager/cocaine "lads lads lads" culture is a culture I despise.
I stand by every word I said because it's true and observable. I don't think it's a class thing, it's more a cultural thing. In the same way public schoolboys will have pictures of 2Pac and start speaking with an urban accent and call each other "bruv" and "fam", nothing to do with class, more to do with clinging on to an identity because cultivating a personality is too much like hard work.
The only subtle error in your interpretation is that of the "can't be arsed to take on more responsibility in their firm because it's too much like hard work" which is less to do with being workshy and more to do with being a coward, they would rather hover in the sidelines than stand as leaders. The cocaine is probably the only time they feel a flush of self-confidence. I would pity them but I want them to suffer, I don't want to be their friend, and I don't want them to have a role in society beyond being cannon fodder for the next oil war.
I understand your dream would be to get them to unite with normal people to destroy the tories and improve living standards. But it will never happen, in my opinion, so really it's about what we do about them and how we treat them. And none of my ideas about that are coming from a place of compassion or kindness. These people are the school bullies, the rapists, the entitled and the greedy. Life is better without them.
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RileyOBlimey
Well-Known Member
I would advise a short break from this thread to think.
Your post above uses a classic mechanism directly related to racism i.e. you see others in an “out-group” as being very similar (“cultivating a personality is too much like hard work”) and your “in-group” as being diverse.
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