Feedback on the delayed progress of Loughborough Junction

[Stobart Stopper]

Yes, this might be uncomfortable to hear for some, but there are people who think that since Brixton has become more gentrified it has become more divided... and I'm one of them.

And the same goes for Hackney, Leyton and Walthamstow.

 

[CK1977]

So "gentrification" is the negative thing that comes with the positive of outside investment is it? Then we agree on that. What I'm arguing against is not change or investment, both are good. What I don't like are the "improvements" that only cater for the monied: such as expensive, bland bars and, as previously mentioned, the revamp of Ferndale Sports Centre, which sounds good until you realise it's inaccessible to many because all the prices have gone up loads. While simultaneously things that really matter, like affordable housing and genuinely accessible youth facilites are diminishing.

The clean-up of some of the pubs is about forcing conformity too IMO.

Yup, totally agree Hatboy. I'm not against change either, but change has to cater for all classes in Lambeth and unfortunately it's not. As you rightly pointed out the Ferndale Sports Centre is a prime example, as are the bland bars.

I made the statement about "long-term lambeth residents, who may not have high powered city jobs" having less social choices a while back in the thread about Atlantic66 and I will stick by what I said. All these new developments happening in Brixton are catering for one class only and it bloody stinks

And lets be honest, the clean up of pubs tend to be the ones that are frequented by the old skool caribbean community.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

For your information - I suffer from a great deal of the same problems as 'Lambeth Driving me Crazy'.....and have been busted by those wretched traffic lane camera's on more than one occassion - I struggle to pay the mortgage on my flat........

Some good points in your post Domski - though the two "problems" that I've highlighted above don't really compare to some of the other problems experienced by people in Lambeth as a result of gentrification

 

[Domski]

Some good points in your post Domski - though the two "problems" that I've highlighted above don't really compare to some of the other problems experienced by people in Lambeth as a result of gentrification

BH - I was replying directly to HB's post 'Lambeth Driving Me Crazy'... I appreciate those problems have nothing to do with Gentrification but DO have everything to do with living in Lambeth...

So far problems that have arisen as a result of gentrification raised on THIS thread have been (I apologise again if I haven't read up as much on this subject as a lot of other posters)

1. People not being able to afford to buy their council houses because the applicable discount is too low
2. The new Brixton recreation centre being unaffordable to 'normal' people
3. The systematic closure and marginalisation of many of Brixton's old haunts
4. A lack of new establishments to replace these that cater for 'normal' people

I'm sure there are many more that people are ready to point out - but to answer these in turn...

1. Is not a problem of Gentrification - those who oppose 'gentrification' would never (and should never) support the right to allow social housing to be bought... I personally think that the universal application of this priniciple is wrong and that 'right to buy' is/was a good thing, BUT, in areas with chronic shortages of social and affordable housing (how to measure 'a shortage' would be difficult though, but there are plenty of local government people who could mull over it in triplicate), selling off housing stock is NOT the correct thing to do... however, complaining that you can't afford to buy your house IF you are a person who opposes gentrification is pretty hypocritical IMO.

2. Bollocks - The prices may have gone up but the place is always rammed and NOT with 'conservative young proffessionals' (Sorry LOL!)... just because people can't afford it doesn't mean that the rest of the community isn't benefiting from the improvements... what people are complaining about here is not having the right to use the centre for the unbelievably cheap knock down subsidised prices that there used to be - this is altogether different from it becoming 'exclusive' to certain sections of the community... I'm sorry but that centre wasn't built for nothing and people, christ, even the government have to recoup their investment somehow

3. This is massively overblown, and some of the older 'landmarks' that have been shutdown (Cooltan, GM, Brady's, Duke of Wellington (Is that right?) etc) were shut down despite obviously providing some memorable and generally wicked nights at some point turned into pretty dodgy and dangerous places at others... and I'm sorry, I'm no anarchist, and firmly believe that serious drugdealing, 24 hour parties and the occasional gunfight mean that enough sometimes IS enough - if the owners, occupiers or locals can't keep these places under control something has got to be done and if closure is the way forward then so be it...

4. I agree with this, I'd like some more down to earth places and a couple of proper pubs, but I'm afraid the movement with the times governs this - not necessarily gentrification, more fashions and trends, and also, economic sense does tend to rule many of todays investment decisions - that said, if this massive underswell of local support exists, why in the hell does a market not exist... where is the support for them... or is it too late... I'm not sure it is actually - it's just up to someone with enough sense to try and harness this 'support' rather than pissing money up the wall the wrong way and opening a shop that only sells chakra stylee goods then no-one buys

Running out of steam a bit here, BUT, in answer to the some other points

'The clean-up of some of the pubs is about forcing conformity too IMO'

and

'And lets be honest, the clean up of pubs tend to be the ones that are frequented by the old skool caribbean community'

This is a damn shame - BUT why the fuck is it happening? I think it's about time the old skool caribbean community stood up to the bloody crack dealers and gun toters who have ruined many caribbean pubs AND STOP blaming the shutting down of them on some sort of bullshit institutional racism... one thing (takeover by dealers) happens before the other (shutdown by the authorities) and NOT the other way around. I'm sure it's not easy to take on the gangs when they're taking over your pub etc, BUT, it's at time's like these when the authorities and the community need to be asked for HELP - unfortunately, there appears to be too much mistrust of 'the authorities' by the old skool caribbean community to do this in many cases. I really hope that this isn't taken the wrong way, because I would be very dissapointed to be labelled a racist.

Anyway, there's loads of good stuff that could happen in Brixton - I wish people would stop moaning about gentrification, marginalisation etc... and let things happen rather than assume there's some sort of sinister plot to undermine the 'incumbent communities'.... phew...

 

[hatboy]

Agree with parts, disagree with other parts. And "Lambeth Driving Me Crazy" was quoting "Reubeness" not my words. Thing is Domski, you'll say that on one hand you haven't looked deeply into all this (you've said you are new to Brixton as well) and then on the other hand you say things like you "firmly believe that serious drugdealing, 24 hour parties and the occasional gunfight mean that enough sometimes IS enough".

So you firmly believe things you confess to knowing little about. Your posts are all muddled-up. For instance "drug-dealing" - are you talkng about a little weed or a full-on crack house, not the same atall? And you connect gun crime (which is of course very serious) and the squat party scene when there is usually no connection.

 

[hatboy]

"I wish people would stop moaning about gentrification, marginalisation etc... and let things happen."

Yes, lets just lie down and accept everything no question. Like they did in Notting Hill.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

BH - I was replying directly to HB's post 'Lambeth Driving Me Crazy'... I appreciate those problems have nothing to do with Gentrification but DO have everything to do with living in Lambeth...

Hmm, point taken, but I think the fact that you've "been busted by those wretched speed cameras" is more a function of your illegal driving, than of your living in Lambeth.

Anyway, there's loads of good stuff that could happen in Brixton - I wish people would stop moaning about gentrification, marginalisation etc... and let things happen rather than assume there's some sort of sinister plot to undermine the 'incumbent communities'.... phew...

You're right, there's no "sinister plot to undermine the 'incumbent communities'" but there's the capitalist system we live in, market forces, the forces of gentrification - these will all have an effect unless you do something about them.

It actually makes me rather angry that you wished people would "stop moaning" about gentrification and "let things happen". If that were the case, Brixton would be a bland, soulless, generic London highstreet/town cente with little to distinguish it from Clapham/Notting Hill/Battersea/ or anywhere else. If people didn't moan/object, they would have bars next to their bedroom windows pumping out music all night. If people didn't moan/object we could have a bloody 6 lane motorway running through the centre of Brixton. It's not a case of "just letting things happen".

Finally - on the subject of the sports centre - I use it myself and the footy is actually £45 for Lambeth residents, not £60 as stated previously. It is a really good facility and well used by local clubs etc. It's still rather expensive comparatively but it is a fantastic facility used by the community.

 

[hatboy]

"If people didn't moan/object we could have a bloody 6 lane motorway running through the centre of Brixton."

This is actually not an exaggeration Domski. The squatters of Villa Rd (amongst other protestors/residents) were a part of the reason why Brixton is not now another Elephant & Castle.

See these:

http://www.squat.freeserve.co.uk/story/ch12.htm

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/barrier1.html

 

[Domski]

OK Hatboy - I admit it, because you now 'suspect' that I'm being inconsistent I should not be listened too... fair enough... actually, hang on I've changed my mind - I LIVE in Brixton, I used to use U75 a lot until I got fed up with it, I check back here a bit to find out what's going on but I don't pore over the detail of every thread as you probably do, lord knows this discussion has probably happened before - which is why I try and qualify my statements by saying 'I don't know what's been discussed' not 'I don't know'... I try and back everything up I say with as much valid argument and fact as I can possibly think of - is that acceptable or not?

As for the 'just lying down and accepting things' - rubbish - YOU KNOW that's not what I mean - I've explained earlier in this thread what pisses me off - i.e. the endless processes, the sub-committee rediscussions, the need to cater for absolutely every sectional interest no matter how bonkers it is... with particular regard to why NOTHING has happened in LJ... so sod your own crass generalisations like

'Yes, lets just lie down and accept everything no question. Like they did in Notting Hill.' Yes, very droll... If you think that's what I mean then you've misjudged these posts - you really have. Same goes for you BH.

Anyway - lets try not to let this get too personal... I do apologise for my digs at you Hatboy, but you strike me as the sort of guy who can deal with some banter, especially from the likes of people like me.

 

[hatboy]

Yeah, no worries.

But I think you should perhaps think about blaming the council, and government even, for some of the delaying of decent projects and so on. And the agenda of some parts of the media to portray Brixton as a very dangerous place. It's likely that some investors steer clear of Brixton because of their ignorance about the people who live here and negative publicity of the area. It's not really right to lay the blame on people who care about their neighbourhood and really do try and intervene in things from the point of view of parity and fairness or, in the case of buildings, good design.

It's good that people here show time and again in both big and small ways that they don't want to be trampled on by authority, and nowadays, pure money interests.

 

[hatboy]

"the need to cater for absolutely every sectional interest no matter how bonkers it is"

Well, 1) One person's "bonkers" are another person's beliefs. Depends what you cal bonkers. All animals are equal but some are more equal than others eh?

2) The problem is not the attempt by the council to actually listen to the people of Lambeth. The problem is how efficiently and fairly they are able to do this. And whether they are sincere in this desire and do act on it.

Going back to the LJ problems. The developer has his planning permission for both pubs (Green Man with provision for surgery below, Warrior as traditional pub with flats above) if he wants it. To blame any further delay on locals' concerns about the projects would be untrue. That's in the past. It's down to the developer to get on with it now.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

...If you think that's what I mean then you've misjudged these posts - you really have. Same goes for you BH....Anyway - lets try not to let this get too personal...

I'm sorry if my posts have got your back up Domski - I don't do personal slanging matches on u75 - but I was merely trying to make a few points that you appeared not to be aware of. You're right to voice your frustrations about LJ here - and now, between us all, we have a clearer picture of what is going on.

 

[CK1977]

This is a damn shame - BUT why the fuck is it happening? I think it's about time the old skool caribbean community stood up to the bloody crack dealers and gun toters who have ruined many caribbean pubs AND STOP blaming the shutting down of them on some sort of bullshit institutional racism... one thing (takeover by dealers) happens before the other (shutdown by the authorities) and NOT the other way around. I'm sure it's not easy to take on the gangs when they're taking over your pub etc, BUT, it's at time's like these when the authorities and the community need to be asked for HELP - unfortunately, there appears to be too much mistrust of 'the authorities' by the old skool caribbean community to do this in many cases. I really hope that this isn't taken the wrong way, because I would be very dissapointed to be labelled a racist.

Yeah all those Caribbean boozers are regurlarly frequented by those Nasty Yardie Chaps who go around shooting everyone in sight! and deal crack and heroin to all the old skool Caribbean Community

FFS Every pub has a dodgy character in it, I just think the Caribbean pubs have been targeted because............well take my thoughts anyway you want to

A lot of these trendy "style" bars/clubs have drug dealers in them too! They're rife with people popping pills and snorting the "white powder" at the weekends.

Make what you want of it

 

[hatboy]

Don't hold back CK1977 - I welcome your comments. Your understanding and comments might help attract other more aware people to these boards.

 

[hatboy]

Planning permissions for the two pubs at LJ are now both granted. The Warrior - flats with traditional pub below, Green Man - flats with space for surgery/medical centre below.

Any further criticisms and comments regarding delays should be addressed to the developer, Briarpath Properties.

 

[Domski]

Planning permissions for the two pubs at LJ are now both granted. The Warrior - flats with traditional pub below, Green Man - flats with space for surgery/medical centre below.

Any further criticisms and comments regarding delays should be addressed to the developer, Briarpath Properties.

Oh well, that's good news And not before time - I wonder what you would have said if the developer had gone bankrupt or decided to sell up though - this loop would have had to have been gone through all over again... anyway, that's not happened so it's moot.

As for CK1977's comments, all I can say is

I never implied that 'Caribbean boozers are regurlarly frequented by those Nasty Yardie Chaps who go around shooting everyone in sight! and deal crack and heroin to all the old skool Caribbean Community' - what a ridiculous statement.

The two Caribbean pubs I know of that have been shut down, The GM and The Duke of Wellington on Acre Lane (still not sure if I've got the name right on this one) were shut down for good reason - the GM, because like it or not, it had become a focal point for class A drug dealing and local community intimidation in LJ, and the Duke of Wellington because of shootings on MORE than one occassion. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but those are both pretty good reasons for shutting them down are they not?

As for targetting these pubs - if as you say, they are being unfairly targetted for racist reasons, then you're absolutely right, THAT IS WRONG. If however, they just so happen to be where illegal and intimidatory things are happening, then it's right for them to be targetted. Like I said before, it seems all too easy for critics of the 'alleged targeting' of Caribbean boozers to cry 'racist' first rather than to examine all the issues.

As for drug dealing itself, I don't really care as long as it's done in a 'non damaging' way (I'm for wholesale drug legalisation and regulation) - by this I mean, non pushing, non threatening, non gang style (although I do appreciate its often the nature of the bloody business, but that's another issue) which is why I couldn't give a toss about people who sell a few pills, weed etc in Style bars or for that matter in transportation convenience shops

 

[hatboy]

The point about the black pubs is that people seem quicker to judge. I think it's common knowledge that the Wellington and the Green Man ended up with serious problems that justified closure. But that doesn't have to mean permanent closure. Nor does it mean they were always problem pubs.

I might tell you again THE Green Man was a nice pub (a bit like the Angel) for years before recent problems.

All the info is here, re-read the thread anybody who has questions about this.
To re-iterate - if the Green Man renovation doesn't happen now, that's down to council/developer delays - not questions raised by me or other residents.

Frankly Domski - If you'd been here longer and thought about it more you'd be less inclined to slag off local people for bothering to care about their neighbourhood.

 

[hatboy]

Domski said:

"which is why I couldn't give a toss about people who sell a few pills, weed etc in style bars"

The reason to give a toss is that sometimes the same standards of what you can get away with are not applied evenly to all types of venues by the authorities.

 

[Domski]

Frankly Domski - If you'd been here longer and thought about it more you'd be less inclined to slag off local people for bothering to care about their neighbourhood.

Hatboy - with the greatest respect - I suggest you remove your head from up your arse. That is one of the most arrogant attitudes I think I've ever seen, and would have expected a lot better from you - do my posts indicate that I haven't thought about it at all?

The reason to give a toss is that sometimes the same standards of what you can get away with are not applied evenly to all types of venues by the authorities.

I'm sorry but you can't get away with shootings and being the epicentre of class A drug dealing in LJ, I'd say shutting down in both cases was a pretty proportional response to the problem.

 

[hatboy]

" Hatboy - with the greatest respect - I suggest you remove your head from up your arse. That is one of the most arrogant attitudes I think I've ever seen*, and would have expected a lot better from you - do my posts indicate that I haven't thought about it at all?"

It's not arrogant. I'm just miffed I've tried to influence something for the good, and all you're doing is fucking moaning. You don't understand that most of the problems in this are to do with council red-tape NOT interested residents.

And talking of heads up arses - you've clearly missed the detail of what me and CK1977 were saying about black pubs too.

*You've had a sheltered life. LOL.

 

[Domski]

" Hatboy - with the greatest respect - I suggest you remove your head from up your arse. That is one of the most arrogant attitudes I think I've ever seen*, and would have expected a lot better from you - do my posts indicate that I haven't thought about it at all?"

It's not arrogant. I'm just miffed I've tried to influence something for the good, and all you're doing is fucking moaning. You don't understand that most of the problems in this are to do with council red-tape NOT interested residents.

And talking of heads up arses - you've clearly missed the detail of what me and CK1977 were saying about black pubs too.

*You've had a sheltered life. LOL.

*OK - most arrogant attitude I've seen in relation to an argument like this I really don't think I've missed your or CK1977's point on black pubs and YOU calling ME a moaner makes me laugh

Anyway - bollocks to all this arguing - I think we've probabaly flogged that dead horse long enough

 

[hatboy]

Yeah I agree! Seriously - I really hope it works out down there now. But honestly, honestly, whoever you are, there was very little delay added by people saying "can we have something useful where the GM pub was". Very little. It really was as explained; council and developer's delays, mostly Lambeth. And confusion about how to respond best to the crime situation there in the past.