Extinction Rebellion

[littlebabyjesus]

I had a wander around yesterday. Crusties there, sure, but they're a minority. 'Hideously white' as the Guardian would have us believe? Not really. Mostly white people but far from exclusively so. A large contingent of older people, and many of those most determined to be arrested when I was there were very old - at least in their 70s, mostly women. It's an eclectic mix, including Christian groups, old school CND protesters, socialist groups, groups who would reform capitalism.

I liked the open, unled nature of it in many ways - anyone can take the microphone really. But my worry would be that a movement that would accept Boris Johnson's dad as a speaker is a movement without clear objectives. I'm still not entirely sure what a manifesto for XR would look like.

 

[8ball]

'Hideously white' as the Guardian would have us believe? Not really. Mostly white people but far from exclusively so.

And general levels of hideousness?

 

[Red Sky]

A small vicar block forming where I'm stood. Which should raise some interesting questions over bail for Sunday if they get their dog collars felt.

 

[Gramsci]

Pain & compliance...



then some of the silly fuckers do this:

View attachment 186638

Pain and compliance is another way of saying using torture to get someone to do something.

What is even more disturbing about the video is that this is institutionalised. The officer in charge ( the black officer with red lapels) is directing officers in the use of the torture techniques to get "compliance".

This isn't police officers gone rogue or losing their temper and lashing out. Or defending themselves from attack by protestors. Which one could understand.

So its something police are trained to use. Institutionalised state sanctioned violence against peaceful protest.

 

[A380]

Pain and compliance is another way of saying using torture to get someone to do something.

What is even more disturbing about the video is that this is institutionalised. The officer in charge ( the black officer with red lapels) is directing officers in the use of the torture techniques to get "compliance".

This isn't police officers gone rogue or losing their temper and lashing out. Or defending themselves from attack by protestors. Which one could understand.

So its something police are trained to use. Institutionalised state sanctioned violence against peaceful protest.

Yes. That’s why it’s called a police force. There is a monopoly of violence that the state holds.

The law ( s117 PACE just for one) permits the use of force to enforce many police powers.

Why are you surprised?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes. That’s why it’s called a police force. There is a monopoly of violence that the state holds.

The law ( s117 PACE just for one) permits the use of force to enforce many police powers.

Why are you surprised?

I doubt anybody is surprised.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes. That’s why it’s called a police force. There is a monopoly of violence that the state holds.

The law ( s117 PACE just for one) permits the use of force to enforce many police powers.

Why are you surprised?

Police use of force (College of Policing)

pain and compliance techniques detailed in (the sadly redacted) https://www.college.police.uk/FOI/Documents/FOIA-2016-0088DDP4.pdf

it is interesting they're in a publication entitled 'personal safety' rather than a public order manual, suggesting they should be used in self-defence, not when there's a great pile on of officers onto one unfortunate person on the ground

 

[andysays]

I doubt anybody is surprised.

I got the impression from some of XRs earlier statements that they weren't expecting or prepared for police violence, and from recent tweets etc that some people are genuinely surprised.

 

[Gramsci]

Yes. That’s why it’s called a police force. There is a monopoly of violence that the state holds.

The law ( s117 PACE just for one) permits the use of force to enforce many police powers.

Why are you surprised?

I didn't say I was surprised.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I got the impression from some of XRs earlier statements that they weren't expecting or prepared for police violence, and from recent tweets etc that some people are genuinely surprised.

Ok. I doubt anybody reading this thread is surprised. The idiot who sent flowers to Brixton Nick might be, I don't know.

 

[Gramsci]

Yes. That’s why it’s called a police force. There is a monopoly of violence that the state holds.

The law ( s117 PACE just for one) permits the use of force to enforce many police powers.

Why are you surprised?

To qualify Ive seen police being more "assertive" this time around. Grabbing hold of people had chucking them out the way.

What is new to me is this "pain and compliance" techniques. This isnt just brusque handling its techniques police are trained in.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To qualify Ive seen police being more "assertive" this time around. Grabbing hold of people had chucking them out the way.

What is new to me is this "pain and compliance" techniques. This isnt just brusque handling its techniques police are trained in.

That's where the old people come in very tactically handy. Shame the fuckers into using 'pain and compliance' on an 80-year-old woman.

 

[andysays]

To qualify Ive seen police being more "assertive" this time around. Grabbing hold of people had chucking them out the way.

What is new to me is this "pain and compliance" techniques. This isnt just brusque handling its techniques police are trained in.

The specific techniques may (or may not, IDK) be new, but police have been trained in techniques of physical persuasion for quite a while now.

 

[Pickman's model]

To qualify Ive seen police being more "assertive" this time around. Grabbing hold of people had chucking them out the way.

What is new to me is this "pain and compliance" techniques. This isnt just brusque handling its techniques police are trained in.

a quick search suggests that 'pain and compliance' techniques are supposed to be used when the cops come across someone who is unwilling to go quietly

Pc wins handcuff damages


BBC NEWS | UK | A sharp shock to deal with violence

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it's a delicate line to tread here. Outrage at the very slightest use of physical force makes the protesters appear naive, particularly where the coppers are not piling in like coppers might do. You risk alienating those watching, or worse, making them feel sorry for the police.

At the same time, making it clear they are using pain as a technique by wailing loudly can be effective, especially from people who are not themselves at all physically threatening. And as Frank pointed out earlier, telling people to stop resisting is a normal plod tactic in order to justify use of more force. Close-up filming of the arrest showing that no resisting is taking place is also potentially effective. Embarrass the fuckers.

 

[Gramsci]

Police use of force (College of Policing)

pain and compliance techniques detailed in (the sadly redacted) https://www.college.police.uk/FOI/Documents/FOIA-2016-0088DDP4.pdf

it is interesting they're in a publication entitled 'personal safety' rather than a public order manual, suggesting they should be used in self-defence, not when there's a great pile on of officers onto one unfortunate person on the ground

A quick look at the heavily redacted manual and your right the suggestion is that these are techniques to be used in self defence against people who are being aggressive.

The last section is about the legal issues. The case studies are abou dealing with people who are violent or looking like they will be. What is proportionate reaction to that.

The XR lot aren't violent or giving giving indication they could be.

The legal bit at end of training manual cites the human rights issues. I would have thought there is possibility of a case here. The police response to non violent protestors isn't proportionate.

 

[Gramsci]

I think it's a delicate line to tread here. Outrage at the very slightest use of physical force makes the protesters appear naive, particularly where the coppers are not piling in like coppers might do. You risk alienating those watching, or worse, making them feel sorry for the police.

At the same time, making it clear they are using pain as a technique by wailing loudly can be effective, especially from people who are not themselves at all physically threatening. And as Frank pointed out earlier, telling people to stop resisting is a normal plod tactic in order to justify use of more force. Close-up filming of the arrest showing that no resisting is taking place is also potentially effective. Embarrass the fuckers.

Also I noticed the two protestors weren't being abusive. They were wailing and making it clear to onlookers that they were being hurt. So I'm guessing that XR could be training people to respond like this if police use "pain and compliance".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Also I noticed the two protestors weren't being abusive. They were wailing and making it clear to onlookers that they were being hurt. So I'm guessing that XR could be training people to respond like this if police use "pain and compliance".

Yep. Although tbf if they were being really badly hurt, I'd expect them to be abusive. I'm a bit undecided on that as a tactic. There is clearly a current within XR that doesn't want to make the police an enemy of the movement. But the police's place in society necessarily puts them in opposition to protesters who wish to disrupt the system - the police are, among other things, protectors of the system. (ETA: In a rebellion, surely you encourage the police to swap sides and join you.) Takes me back to a previous point - I'm not sure what XR really stands for.

 

[Pickman's model]

A quick look at the heavily redacted manual and your right the suggestion is that these are techniques to be used in self defence against people who are being aggressive.

The last section is about the legal issues. The case studies are abou dealing with people who are violent or looking like they will be. What is proportionate reaction to that.

The XR lot aren't violent or giving giving indication they could be.

The legal bit at end of training manual cites the human rights issues. I would have thought there is possibility of a case here. The police response to non violent protestors isn't proportionate.

the other thing is that it's apparently an instruction being given - that is, officer discretion seems to be being over-ridden, and so the behaviour of any individual no longer determining the level of force used, but a senior officer who is imposing a blanket response.

 

[editor]

Pain & compliance...

That is fucking horrendous

View attachment 186638

And so is that

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Standard plod tactics issued to the anti fracking activists at Balcombe.

 

[Pickman's model]

Standard plod tactics issued to the anti fracking activists at Balcombe.

i don't think this was rolled out just for xr, i think there's been some high-level thinking about how to deal and someone's piped up and said 'this is how we do it at wherever'. but tbh all the more reason now it has been rolled out for xr to have the matter tested in the courts (as i imagine netpol or some similar organisation will). i don't hold out the liberal hope that a court case will prevent abuse in future: but it should lead to compo here and a nice precedent being set. just to be clear, i don't mean go for a judicial review of is this on, but a straightforward suing for damages.

 

[spitfire]

They're at Bishopsgate now. Might pop down for a look.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

i don't think this was rolled out just for xr, i think there's been some high-level thinking about how to deal and someone's piped up and said 'this is how we do it at wherever'. but tbh all the more reason now it has been rolled out for xr to have the matter tested in the courts (as i imagine netpol or some similar organisation will). i don't hold out the liberal hope that a court case will prevent abuse in future: but it should lead to compo here and a nice precedent being set. just to be clear, i don't mean go for a judicial review of is this on, but a straightforward suing for damages.

I’m sure activists at Balcombe who were subjected to pressure point removal tactics had to suck up the fact that this plod tactic ain’t new, & when plod want you out of the way, they’ll use it (legally).

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m sure activists at Balcombe who were subjected to pressure point removal tactics had to suck up the fact that this plod tactic ain’t new, & when plod want you out of the way, they’ll use it.

i've seen cops use pain and compliance techniques for years, so i wouldn't base any legal action on cops being nasty. i would instead base it on cop telling cops to be nasty in an nvda setting, and the video evidence might make that a workable claim.

however, there's always one arsehole who wants to go for a judicial review

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Be interesting to see how it pans out, but ya know.....the state.

E2a I did edit my post to put legally.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The one and only rule for "pain and compliance" tactics seems to be "if you can get away with it". Out in the public part of Trafalgar Square there'd be an uproar. In the airport or in closed off areas or just when there's nobody about who cares (as with the legal observer being deliberately hit with a door) anything goes. Not new really.

Of course the cops concerned will not always make good judgements as to whether they can get away with it, and what they feel like getting away with will vary.

 

[spitfire]

At Bishopsgate now. Decent crowd totally blocked off, samba band and 2 separate sets of lock ons/glued people. Also glued to the door of the hotel and blocking the main entrance. G4S truck has a couple of lads on it but not causing any damage.

Just had a cringe at We Love The Police...

 

[spitfire]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just had a cringe at We Love The Police...

Cops in your pic and the ones I saw yesterday looking really very awkward about the whole thing.

Good.